Breaking Free from How We’ve Always Done It | Chris Vaughan

Chris Vaughn: [00:00:00] I was doing well and everyone liked what I was doing, and, and my dad, God love him, pulled me aside. And, and put his arm around my shoulder and said, you know, happiness is the goal,

Sadaf Beynon: welcome back to Conversations That Grow where we explore how the right conversations can shape our business leadership, and even how we see the world. I'm Sadaf Beynon, and today I'm speaking with Chris Vaughn. Chris is the Chief Strategy Officer at Sequence Consulting and with over 24 years of experience, Chris helps nonprofit associations unlock transformational growth and lasting change by rethinking their membership and revenue strategies. Chris, welcome. It's great to have you.

Chris Vaughn: Thanks so much. It's great to be here.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. Chris. Let's start with my usual question. a conversation you've had that changed how you think about business leadership or growth?

Chris Vaughn: Yeah. The, the, [00:01:00] the, the, the conversation that comes to mind and, and I think about it often is, is a conversation that I had with, with my father

Sadaf Beynon: Okay.

Chris Vaughn: ear early in my career when I started. Um, uh, you know, things really took off for me very, very quickly, right? I, I, I got into the consulting world. I, I started in philosophy.

That's probably a whole nother story, right? I wanted to be a professor, uh, and I was for about 10 minutes, you know, and then I, I realized that that was not the most lucrative life choice I could have made. Uh, and I found myself in the consulting role, and I, and I was doing really well, right? I was getting promoted really quickly and I was making more money, and they were sending me all over the world, and I was into all these exciting things and that was pretty much all I was doing, right.

Was, you know, working and traveling and striving right? And sort of, and, and growing and, and, and I thought I was doing the right thing, right? I thought I was doing what I was supposed to do. I was, I was doing well and everyone liked what I was doing, and, and my dad, God love him, pulled me aside. And, and put his arm around my shoulder and [00:02:00] said, you know, happiness is the goal, right?

Happiness is the goal. And I, I wasn't sure what, what he meant by that. And I kind of thought I was in trouble, you know, like, like maybe I had done something wrong, you know? Like, well, you know, I, I thought I was doing the right things. I'm hitting all the right buttons. I'm, I'm, I'm hitting the ball. Out of the park.

And, and I don't think I was in trouble, but I do think he was concerned. I think he was really worried that, um, I was pursuing the wrong things, you know, that I was, I was focused on the wrong things and I was spending my time on the wrong things, that I was after the wrong things. And I think it, it, it really, really concerned him.

And, and he had come to that insight. I, I think the hard way, right in, in his own life, he was a. Uh, I started to live as a stockbroker, you know, in life where he was on the phone all day, Wolf of Wall Street, right. Dial for dollars, uh, you know, trying to make the money and striving. And I think he hit a point in, in his life where, uh, he really hit the wall, right?

I think, you know, [00:03:00] as successful as he had been, and he was, he was very successful and he had a family, um, but, but, but really wasn't happy and, and wasn't happy in his life, and I think had some real. Um, uh, conflicts

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm.

Chris Vaughn: and what his business required of him. You know, I think the people he was with weren't always the most ethical.

I think the business he was in was not, you know, the most principled

business in the world. And I think he really struggled with that and inside and, you know, not who he was. And, and at one point he, um, uh, I don't wanna say he broke down, but I think that's what happened ultimately. Uh, and I think he did a lot of soul searching.

And at the end of it, he came out and he, he quit. He, he quit that business completely. He said he was just tired of, you know, working for Liars and Thieves and, and went into business for himself. Um, and, and almost went out of business, I think more than once. Honestly, when I was a kid, I didn't really know.

I found out much later. [00:04:00] Uh, but because he decided that happiness was the goal, right? It wasn't about money or anything else.

Um, and so it. When I recovered from, from the, the sidebar rather than my father, uh, you know, I kind of really took that to heart and I'm like, well, what am I doing? You know, why, why am I really doing this?

I'm, everything I'm doing, I'm doing for other people, right? I'm like, I'm achieving all of their goals and none of my own.

And in the end of the day, and they're, they're paying me lots of money. Um, but at after a, a point that doesn't matter all that much. You know what, what, what am I doing? I'm on the road five days a week and.

Um, don't even know what I'm doing. And, and so I had the same kind of epiphany honestly, with him. Uh, at that point, um, not long after that, I, I got, I met my wife and I got married. She, I worked for the same firm and she was in the same place, right? She was very successful and she'd come from a completely different world and, and entered the consulting world and took off and we suddenly, we woke up and we were senior executives.

Like, how does that [00:05:00] happen? Um, but you know, neither of us were loving in life. You know, either of us were really loving it. And, and, uh, I took Dad's advice to Harden and we quit. You know, we, we quit our jobs at this big consulting firm. We started our own company,

uh, which is Sequence Consulting and, and, and focused on nonprofits.

And, and as I thought about your question and like, what was the semial conversation for me in my life? I think it was Dad. And, you know, giving me, not just permission, but I think kind of a, a, a command, honestly.

To think about what make, what happiness really would be for us. And for us, it was, it was not just about the money.

Yeah. We wanted to be successful and we wanted to have a good life in our own kids, but it was about, uh, for us it was really about doing something meaningful, right? We wanted to wake up in the morning, uh, and do something we felt like was making a difference and go to bed at night feeling like we'd done good things for, for good people.[00:06:00]

Um, and that's what our business has been about for the, the last, you know, 25 years. And I find myself

Maybe

turning into my dad, but giving that same advice to other people all the time. It's like, look, happiness is the goal, right? It's not, that's not the striving. It's not making other people happy. It's not hitting the artificial goal or the next milestone.

It's what are the decisions that are gonna make

you know you happy? What are the decisions gonna make other people happy? And then really thinking about, you know, what happiness means. And what happiness means for you. And maybe, maybe that's the philosopher in me, right? Maybe he's not dead yet. Uh, right.

But I mean, it really was sort of transformational and I think every time I have a chance to have that conversation, it's transformational for other people too. And it sounds so simple, right? But I think it's really very profound, right? That what are we really pursuing in, in life? And when we do have those choices, what does it really mean for us to be happy?

And what would.

For us to choose that right. Rather than, rather than something [00:07:00] else.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you so much for sharing that.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, absolutely.

Sadaf Beynon: I was, um, it sounds like your dad was trying to save you from the, the heartache and the pain that. He had and you know, he knew where you were or he could see where you were heading and wanted to stop you before it got too late.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, I think that's right. I, I think, I think that's right. Yeah.

When I hang up with you, I'll probably, I call him from, thank him again, I guess. Yeah,

Sadaf Beynon: that. Absolutely. Definitely. And it's, it's so great when dads, you know, moms can speak into our lives and we can respond to that.

Chris Vaughn: yeah. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: As you were talking, I've had all these questions come to mind, so I've written 'em down, but my first one was, how old were you when he said that?

Chris Vaughn: I was 27 or, or, or 28. I was, I was young. I was cut just a couple years outta graduate school, you know, and um, sort of, you know, it was like through the looking glass or something. I found my, I'd been in academia all these years, right, where nothing really ever happens. [00:08:00] There's nothing exciting ever happens and I found myself in this corporate world, right?

And the company had just gone public and the internet was new and all this kind of crazy stuff was happening and, and I was really into it, right? I was really overtaken, I think, and I do think Dad was worried about that. I think he sort of saw where it was going, you know, that I was sort of chasing someone else's rabbit, for lack of a better term, and he just didn't want that for me.

You know? He just didn't want that for me.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. It's also a, actually I'm, I, I really like his approach. His words were few, but they, they had a lot of, they carried a lot of weight. And I guess when you're 27 years old, you don't wanna necessarily be told what to do, but you want the guidance. And it sounds like that's what he did for you.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, you absolutely do not wanna be told what to do. And I, I, I didn't wanna be taken down 'cause I was flying high, right? I was feeling pretty good about myself. I was, you know, I was successful and I was, you know, climbing the ladder and I was making lots of money. And I thought that's what it was all about.

Uh, and, and [00:09:00] I guess you're right, he sort of did it in a very indirect way, but the message really, uh, really struck home. 'cause here, here we are 30 years later and I'm, I'm still telling a story.

Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: No, that's fantastic. And was it a bit of a slow realization what he was, what he was saying? Did it take some time for you to process to really understand the weight of it,

Chris Vaughn: You know, that's, that's a good question. I think it did. I, I think my reaction was like, what is he talking about? Right. Of course, I'm happy. Right. Look, look, look at everything that I'm doing and, and I think it did take.

Yeah, look at what I've achieved. Look at what I've got. Look at what I got. I bought

a new car.

Uh, I did think it took a while for it to, to really sink in and, and to be honest, I think about it all the time. I mean, it comes back to me, you know, again and again, when you hit those junctures in your life, you hit those crisis points. You hit those decision points. Things happen and I, and sometimes I hear that his voice again, I'm like, but happiness is the goal, right?

We can go left or right. Happiness is really the goal. Um, and, and I find in [00:10:00] my, in my life, it, that actually gives me courage, right? It gives me courage to make risky decisions, decisions that seem risky, like walking away from my big job, you know? Right. Or, uh, you know, turning away, uh, a big piece of business that's gonna take us away from, you know, the, uh, uh, our principles and values and the things that are important to us.

Um, it, it seems risky and I, I guess. You know, 30 years of listening to dad, it it, that's not the risk. Right. The risk is really stepping away from the things that, that really, really do make you happy in, in a genuine and authentic kind of way.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. I, I, I thought it was really insightful when you said that you realized you were achieving all the goals for your clients, but none of your

Chris Vaughn: Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: And then you went on to talk about how figuring out what does happiness mean for you. So what does that process, do you think, looks like, 'cause I guess some could argue that having a lot of money. Is what makes you happy.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah.

[00:11:00] Yeah. It, uh, uh, I'm sure a lot of people feel that way, and I, I definitely relate and, and get me, don't, I like money, don't get me wrong. I, I do.

Um, but we've owned our own business for 25 years.

Um, and, and we've had, well, a lot of ups and downs. You know, we've had really, really good years and we've had really, really bad years, right?

We've lived through recessions and we've lived through covid and we've lived through all sorts of things when times were really tough. Um, and none of that had anything to do with our happiness, honestly.

Right. You know, stress. Sure. Right? I mean, you know, when when there's no money, there's problems, right?

There's issues, there's things that you have to solve, but our happiness as a family. Our happiness as a couple, our happiness as a business really had very little to do with that. Right? I'm sure if we lost our house, it's never come to that, but I'm sure we would be very unhappy. Um, you know, but within that realm, that's really, those aren't the things that we used to keep score.

Uh, if keeping score is, [00:12:00] is a valid, sort of, valid thing to say. And that was a real realization too, I think when, you know, when you're young and striving and you're starting your own business, it's all about money, right? It's like, ah, we need clients. Ah, we need business. How, and, and you do, but you realize it's not the checks at the end of the day that make you happy.

It's the wins, right? It's the it know, accomplishing what you set out to accomplish. It's realizing the vision. For, for, for us or for our clients, right? It's like seeing that come true and knowing that we had something to do with that, right? It's like we made things better for someone else. We were able to engineer transformation for someone else or, or for an organization with thousands or tens of thousands of people, you know, that is a happy feeling.

For us. And if we could do it for free, we would,

We,

we can't. So if any clients are listening, don't get the wrong idea.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Chris Vaughn: Uh, but, you know, if we could do it for free, we, we really [00:13:00] would. I think being able to, you know, detach from that sense of, you know, material happiness or using that as a scoreboard, as a score key is, has really been freeing.

You know, for us in, in our life, our business. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, it's almost cir like circumstances versus that happiness or that, um, contentment I suppose.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah. Absolutely. That's right.

Sadaf Beynon: How did it, shift your decisions and your approach to business then as you moved forward?

Chris Vaughn: Y yeah. You

know, and that's a good question too. I think there's a. Uh, there's a world, especially when you're, you're new, right? And you're sort of starting out in the new consulting business where you, you, you would do almost anything

right from, for money. Like anybody in that kind of client, any client at all, right?

I can not, we're smart, we'll do smart things for money, you know, that was sort of, sort of the business. Um, and over the years as, as we've matured, I think, and we've sort of leaned into it, we've become more choiceful, [00:14:00] um, about the things that we, we will and won't do and, and more courageous about just saying no.

Uh, to, to circumstances where we, we don't think we'll be successful

or we don't think what people are asking us for is the right answer or, you know, it's, uh, people we're not comfortable working with. Right. Our values just don't align, you know, with what they wanna do. And it doesn't make them them bad people, but it means they're not on our wavelength.

Right. Uh, and, you know, having the courage to walk away when you're a small company, um, and you've got two kids in college and, and.

and.

Um, you know, it, it takes an awful lot. But to, you know, to, to come back to that north star that, well, what's, what's really gonna make us happy? How are we gonna feel about this a year from now?

Right. If we do this, or how are we gonna feel about this? You know, two years from now when, when we look back and we realize it wasn't what anyone thought it was gonna be, you're happy, you're saying no, honestly, in those situations [00:15:00] than taking the money. And it took a long time, honestly, to. Uh, to come to that, um, you know, maybe it's the early signs of, of old age and wisdom.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, I think, I think there's, um, there's that self-awareness as well, isn't it? The more you

Chris Vaughn: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: yourself and what you want out of life and what makes you happy, what makes you tick, then those kinds of decisions becomes easier.

Chris Vaughn: I,

I think that's right.

And I do think some of that is the, the, you know, the, the spoils of, of age,

uh, and wi and wisdom, right? And the battle scars and making enough bad decisions in your life to figure it out.

Uh, but it's, it's, you know, it's very comforting. And, um, you know, I, I, I realize where dad was coming from.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. No, I love it. Thank you so much for sharing that. I mean, it's great that you still carry. That lesson with you even now, and it's, it's so, evident that it's, you know, it's, it's become a part of how you think and how you operate.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, for sure. Yeah.[00:16:00]

Sadaf Beynon: Um, Chris, I'm fascinated by your philosophy background. How does, how does that influence the way you work?

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, that, that's really interesting. I, um, uh, I sort of fell into, into philosophy completely by accident.

Um, I, I was, I was a real problem child in, in high school. I, I, I, I was in trouble pretty much constantly,

um,

in school and, and my high school principal was at his wits end. He had no idea what to do with me, and so he decided.

One day as, as a punishment, I was, he was gonna force me to read philosophy, right? So he gave me, he gave me three books and he forced me to read these philosophy books and, you know, I had to write a paper and all that stuff. And I always figured, I, I always feel like I won because I loved it, right? I was like, I, I got the upper hand in the situation 'cause I did it.

And, and, and I really loved it and I never let go of it. And, and, um, when I went to college, that's what I wanted to do. And, and I did. [00:17:00] I studied that in college, and when I was done with college, I feel like, I feel like I was just getting started. Right? I was so fascinated with these big questions, right?

And I just, I'd love to be in it. I'd love to be in the big question. I love to kinda wrestle with that and sort of struggle with, you know, the, the meaning of life and, and what does it mean to be happy and all those questions. And I went to graduate school, um, for philosophy. I went to Indiana University.

I got my PhD. Um, and, and my goal was to, to teach philosophy. I was gonna be, you know, a professor,

uh, in, in, in life. And I, I did teach there and I didn't, I did love it, but, but everything else about academia, I hated.

I just couldn't, I hated everything else, but that, you know, I couldn't do it. And it, it was not a good time, uh, to get a job in philosophy.

Right? There was a. A paper called Jobs for Philosophers, and it was basically a blank sheet of paper. I mean, there really was, there, there were no jobs for philosophers. So he hence consulting.

Um, and, and people ask me all the time, well, what does philosophy have to do [00:18:00] with management consulting? I'm like, everything.

It has

absolutely everything to do with it and it's difficult to explain. I think it's, um. Uh, AI actually helps explain, and b, bear with me for for one minute, right?

So, um, you know, it's about pattern recognition, right? That's how we learn, right? That's how a learn you AI learns, you turn it loose on these large

and

it sort of learns patterns and how to look at things and think of things and then fit things into the, I think it's how we all learn about things, right?

We all learn, you know, patterns. And I think the same thing is true in school. So if you study philosophy, the patterns that you learn. Uh, are from the greatest thinkers in history, right?

Who, who wrestle with the, the biggest questions in human life. I mean, that's sort of the, the, that's your large language model that you're sort of learning to think about.

You're learning how to think from studying these people. Those are the patterns that you learn and that you get into your mind. And when you do it for as long as you have [00:19:00] to do, when you learn a PhD, they really just become part of you, uh, and become part of how you think. You know how to deal with really complex questions, how to hold a lot of different variables in your head, you know how to sift through all that and find the one thing that's true, right?

How to string all that together in a way that makes sense, you know, and that you can talk to people about.

So I bring that to my work, right? I, I bring that experience and those patterns to the work that I do and with management and associations. And I, uh, I think that's really unique.

Uh, there's not a lot of philosophers in the world for, for better or worse.

Uh, there's certainly not a philosophers in the space that I'm in,

and I think it gives me a, a really unique perspective. I think it's a different way of seeing things. It's a different way of solving problems that can be super duper valuable, right? I will look at problems differently than someone who went to business school, which is not better.

Or worse necessarily, but it's certainly different. So if, if you, if you come to me, if you come to us, you're, you're gonna get a [00:20:00] different answer then you might, if, if someone else. I think the other thing that studying philosophy for all those years, uh, you know, does, is it gives you a different sense of, uh, uh.

Of, of value, right? Of, of what the right answer means. And maybe it comes back to sort of dad at some point, right? But the, you know, the, the, the right answer isn't just sort of solving the equation. The right answer has to be the right thing. So what's right for the organization, what's authentic to them, right?

You know, what's authentic to who they really are, who they want to be as an organization for us is very much part of the solution set, um, of, of, of what we do. And again, I think that's, that's different. I don't think that people get that from a lot of other consultants. We don't advertise that it's not on our website anywhere.

Maybe it should be, I don't know. But I think in, certainly in the practice of our, uh, work in the way that we, uh, look at problems and the way that we manage clients, there's something very philosophical about it.[00:21:00]

Sadaf Beynon: That's, that's really fascinating. So how do you, how do you approach problems differently than others?

Chris Vaughn: Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: Like, I know you, I know you've touched on it, but what does that look like?

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, that's a great question too. We take a very, um, systemic

look at, at this, right? It's, it's not about solving the problem that's right in front of us, it's about looking at the, the whole system,

uh, of how the business works. And again, maybe there's something very philosophical about that, right? It's like,

you know, and.

If you do philosophy right, if you can imagine such a thing, right? All the pieces fit, right? They all work. Everything has to hang together. That's what makes it hard, right, is you know, you're talking about complicated things. You're talking about some of the biggest problems in human life, but you want to do it in a way that all the pieces fit and connect together.

Um, and that's how we look at, at, at problems. So if we come to an organization or an association, which is the people that we look at, the end result is we want all the pieces to [00:22:00] fit right. We want it all to hang together, right? Like a really good story, you know? Right? Or a really beautiful painting. Like every piece fits perfectly.

Not just the thing that hurts today, right? The problem that's in front of us in its day, but. And, and not even why we got to that problem necessarily, but what is it about the whole system that needs to be better? What needs to change to make it click right, to make the, to make the argument work, if you will, is very much part of our approach and, and the feedback that we get from our clients is they, they really appreciate that

approach, right?

We're not, you know, just trying to solve one thing. We're trying to make the whole organization better. And we want it to stay better and continue getting better long after we leave. I think that's, um, uh, at least they tell us. That's a very different approach.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, it sounds very intentional, purposeful,

Chris Vaughn: Absolutely.

Sadaf Beynon: than patching up, you know, one little problem here. You kind of, you are looking at the bigger picture.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah. It, [00:23:00] it, it's it, um, yes. And it's an inquiry, right? It's, it's, it's asking the question. It is very intentional, for sure.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm.

Chris Vaughn: Bringing it. And it's very creative in a certain way, right? It's not, uh, I think a lot of, uh, consultants and, and you know, not looking to anyone but sort of have, have a method, right? A sort of system or recipe.

Like, well, let's do this and we're gonna go through these steps and you're gonna get this at the end. And for some people, that's the right thing

for our clients. It's not right. The answer's not that obvious. It's not, there's no system that you could go through. There's no, you know, boxes that you can check off it.

It's a very creative process of really understanding them and understanding, you know, their members and their mission and, and how do you need to move the pieces around to help them become the kind of organization that, uh, that they want to be. Sometimes we say it's, you know, it's a lot less like engineering than therapy,

quite frankly,

Sadaf Beynon: Um, the other thing you said, so one was problem [00:24:00] solving, the other one was a different sense of value that you offer.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: So, what is right? What, what is right for them? What, what does that process look like?

Chris Vaughn: Yeah. And, and, you know, not right and wrong in the sense of sort of, you know, morally right or wrong. I don't think any, any of our clients are wrong in that sense. That's why. So if we work with the clients, we do,

um, I,

I, think it's right in the sense of being authentic. Right. You know, to, to them, what, what is the mission really, right?

Why are they really here as an organization? Why are they really here? And we work with the clients that have been here for 150 years, you know, doing what they're doing. But yeah. But, but, okay, but why are you still here?

Sadaf Beynon: Mm.

Chris Vaughn: Right? Why are you here now today? What are you trying to serve? What are your members trying to serve?

And, and how can we help you do that more authentically and, and, and more realistically?

I think that's, and for a lot of folks, that's the key to success. It's what helps 'em make hard decisions, you know, is like, yes, [00:25:00] we could do X, Y, and Z, but we're really here for this, right? Or this is what we're capable of doing.

We really are built to do this other thing and that's what we should do. And helping people come to that realization, right, come to that insight. I think that's the therapy part of the business. Um, but that's really where the transformation comes from, is sort of, you know, em embracing.

You know, their own purpose, you know, their own authentic sense of purpose and, and being realistic about what they can actually accomplish.

See, and I'm sounding very philosophical.

Sadaf Beynon: No, not at all. I, I, I think what I'm hearing you say is they are, they're, they're able to take ownership of that, of that process then, aren't they?

Chris Vaughn: Absolutely. Right? Absolutely. And, and be, uh, internally, internally driven, right? As an organization. I mean, it's. You know, it's, it's difficult not to be driven by, uh, outside forces, right? It's difficult not to be kind of buffeted around, you know, by the, the winds and waves [00:26:00] of, of, of business. Um, and, and in for-profit that's.

More. Okay. Right, because you, you know, you have to be responsive to the, the environment and you have to be responsive to your customers and you have to be responsive to whatever's happening in not-for-profit less so. Right. That's not your job is, you know, to be responsive. It's, you know, your job is to stand for something, right?

Is to stand for a principle and you have to do that in a way that's sustainable. So, yeah, of course you have to respond, but you know, you can't let the outside drive you. Right. You are there to change things outside, if that makes any sense.

Uh, you know, and, and helping, not helping clients rediscover that.

I think they know, right? They have obviously know what their mission and their purpose is. Um, sometimes they don't know what that means in real life.

Sadaf Beynon: Just words, but how do you actually

Chris Vaughn: Yeah.

How do we play it out and how do we effective about that? And, and, you know, why is what we do did 20 years ago not [00:27:00] working anymore?

You know, and how can we reenergize what we're doing a, around the mission without losing sight of

it?

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. That's really interesting. Do you find that there's a common blind spot that you help your clients see?

Chris Vaughn: Uh, you know, that's really funny. Um. And it may be, it may be true for, uh, for a lot of, a lot of other types of organizations, but, you know,

our, clients are, are, are associations. So they're all membership organizations. So ultimately, you know, they, they exist, um, buy-in and for, um, their members. The blind spot typically is they don't understand their members.

Sadaf Beynon: How interesting. Yeah.

Chris Vaughn: typically the blind spot. And I'm not, by no means do, I mean they don't care. They care deeply.

Um, and a lot of times they think they really understand their members, but when we pull back the covers, they just, they just don't,

you know, they don't really understand their members and, and where they're at.[00:28:00]

Um, one anecdote that we like to tell, it's not an anecdote, it's just a fact, right? It's on our checklist. We've worked with hundreds of associations over the years. And we join every single one of them. We are, we are members of more organizations that I can even remember to count. My inbox is a mass. Uh, but our clients don't join their own organizations.

They don't join.

So they have no idea, honestly, what their member experience is. They have no, no idea. They don't know what it feels like to join. They know what it feels like to be a member. They know what it feels like at renewal time. They just, they have no idea.

Um, and when we, we join and we show them what the experience is like, sometimes they're horrified.

They're like, you're gotta be kidding me. We're emailing people nine times a day. I'm like, at least, you know, sometimes more. They have no idea. That they're doing that so that it's, you know, the blind spot. It's not just the members, it's themselves in relation to the members is a, is a huge blind spot. And we kinda laugh about it now because it's predictable.

We ask 'cause like, Hey, has anyone here ever joined? No.

[00:29:00] Uh, you know, as part of the organization. And, and of course we always encourage them to do that, but it's, um, I, I wish I knew why that was, that it, it, it's not more obvious to people that they kind of need to be on that side, right. To understand your member, you need to be a member.

That seems clear

to us. It's like, you know, uh, if you didn't shop at your own store or you didn't eat at your own restaurant, or you didn't, you know, watch your own podcast, I guess, I don't know.

Yeah.

People don't know.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. How interesting. What is usually the biggest resistance to change for them?

Chris Vaughn: In, in these organizations? Yes. Um, they're really old, most of them for sure. Uh, a 50-year-old association would be young, right? That's, that's a startup, you know, that's a startup in our world. Um, there, there are

some newer than that, but there's really not, there's really not very many.

Uh. And the biggest barrier to change is this is the way we've always done it.

I mean, honestly, [00:30:00] but we've always done it this way.

What's impossible? We unthinkable, we couldn't possibly think of doing something a different way.

And a lot of that's safety, right? There's sort of safety and, and, you know, change and very, very risk averse as organizations. Um, they're very member driven, right?

So they're, they're, you know, really, really hesitant to.

You know, piss their members off, uh, or do anything that are gonna make the members unhappy.

Uh, even if it would actually make the members happy, but it's, they're not sure. Right. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. Let's not do that. You know,

let's not go there.

I think there's for-profit companies that are, are like that, but for-profit companies are, are driven, right? They're driven by. Profit motives. They're driven by those things. These organizations really aren't, right.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm.

Chris Vaughn: As long as things are copacetic and, you know, members are generally happy, right? They're not storming the building with torches and pitchforks, then everything is fine.

So creating the [00:31:00] case for change in this organization to do things that are uncomfortable and risky is, is, can be really, really difficult. I think that's, that's the, that's the barrier.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, it's, it's actually interesting you listening to you talk about this because I think going back to what you were saying before about your two approaches of problem solving and helping them, um, you know, understand, sorry, the different sense of value that you talked about, I think I can see how that would work so much better with the associations that you're working with that are. That are so much older, like you're, you know, your 50-year-old, um, startup that you talked about, but I, I understand when you've been in it for so long that you need a different approach.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah,

Sadaf Beynon: just come and like, you know, tear stuff away.

Chris Vaughn: yeah. AB absolutely. And, and they're very inward focused.

And again, this is probably true for a lot of for-profit companies too, but you know, they spend all their entire day, right, thinking about their members,

their issues and their problems, and they don't turn [00:32:00] outward much. They don't look at other organizations and what they're doing.

They don't look outside of the not-for-profit world almost ever. So they don't have perspective on what's possible

and what could work and what could be better. And a lot of what we bring to our clients is that that external perspective, right? Part of our process is let's look at other organizations.

Let's look at some best practices here, right? And let's you know, look at some comparable organizations, what are they doing? And it's always one of the light bulb moments. Of our engagement with clients is they're like, wow, really? That works?

Or

someone else is doing that, or Why, why didn't we think of that?

I mean, it there, there's always that component of it and, and we love it so much. One, because the insight is fun, right? It's like, oh God, you know, the gears get worried, but it gives them courage

like, well if so it worked for them, it might work for us. I think maybe we can try this. You know, and they start to get the courage and you can sort of see the wins in their sails.

I think it's [00:33:00] just woven into the DNA of these organizations that they're so member and mission focused, that they don't put their heads up very much,

you know, to look outside and, and see what's, what's going on.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. And you are, and you are trying to help them grow without compromising their mission.

Chris Vaughn: Absolutely. Absolutely right. And that, and that really is, that really is the key.

That's the. Um, that's the bright, bright red line, right? That one can't cross in these organizations is they're about the mission. Right. And I guess if my, if my father pulled them aside and talked to him, he'd be like, you know, you know, the mission is the goal, right?

The mission is the goal

Sadaf Beynon: yes, yes.

Um, so how do you do that, I guess, is it different for each organization that you work with?

Chris Vaughn: a a little bit. It, it is a little bit different. You know, we really encourage them to, um. Think hard about who their,

not just their competitive set, but their comparable set. Like, well, who, [00:34:00] who do you think is like you? What other organizations do you think are similar to you? Right.

Are there other organizations that you admire?

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Chris Vaughn: Gosh, I really wish we were like those guys. You know, who are those people? And then we encourage 'em to think about, well, okay, what if are there for-profit companies that you think you have something to learn from that that do things the way you do? And, and that's often. Uncomfortable conversation. Like, well, I don't know, right?

Like, I haven't really thought about that. But when you get into that conversation and you sort of choose the solution set of folks, okay, let's do the research on this group of people,

the solution set's always different, but then the process is pretty much the same. I mean, we have a framework that we use, it's gonna surface the comparable best practices where we can compare A to B2C to them.

In a really consistent way that that makes

the,

differences and the possibilities really, really clear, you know, for them. And, and well, how do they talk about themselves? What's their model look like? Right? What's their due structure look like? [00:35:00] What do they offer that you don't side by side? And, and then the, the opportunities, uh, and the gaps honestly just become crystal clear, um, for the client.

And, and often the direction comes into focus right away when you see like, oh gosh, okay, you.

Now we know what we, we could do that too. Yeah,

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. , is there, um, has there ever been a situation where growth like it was threatening their core purpose?

Chris Vaughn: that's an, that's a great question too. That's a great question too. Um, not growth per se. There's many chances were what was required for growth

felt like it was threatening their core purpose. Uh, and, and, and, and just as, uh, an example, you know, there are some organizations that are focused on a very small core audience, right?

Uh, you know, save a very small specialty right in, in science or, or engineering. Um, that's not growing

right, or that's shrinking. So for [00:36:00] them, the organization to grow, they have to think bigger. Right. They have to look outside and well, what are some adjacent

audiences that we could bring into this and how might we be able to do that?

You know, that would require us to, uh, not lose focus, but expand our focus away from this core group of people that

we've existed to serve for 80 years.

That seems really threatening. It, it seems really threatening to, it can seem threatening to the members. Like, wait a minute. You're here for, you're here for us.

Right? You're not here for these other people, you know, in, in this space. I, I think those things can be, you know, very threatening. If we kind of expand our opportu, are we gonna lose our sense of purpose? Are we gonna lose our, the loyalty of our members? Are we gonna becoming a deluded version of ourselves?

And the answer is no. You're gonna be stronger as an organization. Right. You know, all those things are not gonna happen. But those can be very fraught. I think moments for folks when they have to, you know, not lose [00:37:00] mission, but when they have to

expand

it or, or redefine it, uh, obviously, and sometimes that's, that's what's required.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes it's harder to see that when you are working in, in silo almost.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, we, we say that it's hard to read the label when you're sitting in the jar, right? That's,

Sadaf Beynon: yes. I like that.

Chris Vaughn: that's

That.

that's our theory and that's why we're here. Right? We'll, we'll tell you what's on the label. That's what we'll do, so.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. No, I love that. Is the, can you recall a conversation where you've had, um, that you've had with a client that that served as a real turning point for them?

Chris Vaughn: Uh, Klan conversation that we've had that served as a real turning point for them? Yes. I mean, we've had, um, uh, actually not, not so long ago, we had a conversation with a very large, uh, medical, medical society. Very, very well known organization. Um, that knew they were struggling with membership. They knew it wasn't going well, they didn't know [00:38:00] how badly it was actually going.

And we came in and we did our homework and we did our research and we had a, a, a, a very painful conversation with them, uh, where we actually drew a chart of what their future looked like five, 10 years from now. If things continued the way that they did, it's, it's, you know, and we call it the what if we do nothing conversation.

And, you know, we do that. We do that often. But in their cases, what, what if we did nothing? If if we did nothing, they would be out of business

in 10 years. They would shrink to the point where they were no longer financially sustainable and they were gonna shut the organization down.

And this was a very prominent organization.

It's a household name, and they've been around for a really, really long time. And they'd neglected it for so long.

That going outta business was a real possibility for them, honestly.

Um, and they had no idea. I mean, that was really, really news for them. I. Uh, to have that, as you might imagine, that was a very awkward and uncomfortable

conversation, but necessary.

It was really necessary[00:39:00]

to, to, to have that, to tell them the truth. And, uh, and it was, it was an absolute turning point in the project. They saw the urgency of what had to be done, and it really galvanized the leadership of the organization up to the board, uh, around the importance of doing this and the, the depth of change that was required.

And, and it empowered the organization to make some of the changes that really needed to be made. And that client is one of our best success stories, right? They went from

losing

8% of their members per year, uh, to flat in six months, to growing by 8%, uh, you know, within a year. So a 16 point turn in in membership.

Um, within a year, which is astonishing growth, right? In an organization like this. But the, you know, all started with the realization that we're in real, we're in trouble. Like we are in real trouble here.

Sadaf Beynon: Wow. You just talked about, you know, the painful conversation and facing hard truths sometimes, and I think it, it takes [00:40:00] a lot of courage to do that when you're on the receiving end. So how do you help leaders build that courage?

Chris Vaughn: Um, yeah, there's another good question. You, you, there has to be a path,

right? You know, there's sort of, there has to be a path O one. You have to be able to prove it, right? I mean, you know, the data is really critical when you're having these kinds of conversations. I mean, it's easy for somebody to come in and say things are really bad and you're like,

eh, they're not that bad.

And to be able to say, yes, they're

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah.

Chris Vaughn: right. We've really, really lucked out and you have to take this. I think that's part of, it's to be prepared and have the homework, but also there has to be a a yes and right. It's like, yes, things are really bad and there's a way out.

Yes. And here are the things that you can do, right?

And there's hope. And, and, and I think that's part of the conversation and that's part of our role. Maybe back to the therapist again, right? Is, you know, there's light, you know, at the end of the tunnel and, and you're not [00:41:00] alone. And we're gonna walk with you and we're gonna show you the way, and we're gonna, we're gonna help you get there.

But we have to agree that this is a, a difficult situation, you know, right now and, and. Um, and we love our clients and one of the reasons why we love our clients is they're generally up for that, right? I mean, they, they care as much about the, we care as much about the organizations as they do, and they care a lot about the organization and they're willing to do what it takes, uh, to preserve it and to, to save the mission.

Um, and it's one of the really gratifying things about what we do is that, you know, we get to see them make those changes.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, it's, it's absolutely evident that you love your clients and what you, what you do for them. That's definitely coming across.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah. Yeah, we do. We definitely do, definitely do

Sadaf Beynon: Chris, if you could leave listeners with one guiding principle for leading or growing with purpose, what would it be?

Chris Vaughn: leading or growing with purpose. Yes. Um, I, I think,

um,

[00:42:00] happiness is the goal.

Sadaf Beynon: Love it.

Chris Vaughn: I think just to come full circle

and, and I, I think that what, what that means for an organization is, um, the sense of wholeness, right? It's like the alignment, you know, if we're aligned to the purpose, if we're aligned to the membership, it feels right in an organization.

And we can tell right away is an organization happy or not. An organization that's on track, right? They understand their purpose. They know what it means. They know what it takes. Their members are with them and all that. They're happy places. There's energy, right? There's optimism. There's confidence. And they orient to that, right?

They orient to what feels right, and

unhappy

organizations are the opposite, right? There's, there's conflict and there's confusion, right? And there's disarray and disorganization, and the members aren't. With them, they're not aligned. I think it's not so different from people, you know, it's, it's, it doesn't take you long when you meet someone [00:43:00] to figure out if they're happy.

I think,

I think you can tell, and I think organizations are the same. So, as weird as it might seem, uh, to say that an organization is happy, I do think that there's some truth to that. And I think good leaders, whether they talk about it that way or not, they know it. Uh,

and they get it and they, they orient a happiness as well.

Uh, and, and my dad would be proud.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. No, I absolutely agree. I think you only need to speak to someone for five minutes to know how happy

Chris Vaughn: I think so.

Sadaf Beynon: is.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah, I think that's true.

Sadaf Beynon: I. What would you say, um, as to how a leader can help create a happy organization?

Chris Vaughn: I, I think, uh, this is, this is the philosopher again, but I, I think it's the authenticity, honestly, it's honesty. I.

We've worked with a lot of leaders

of all types. Right. Sort of good, bad, and, and indifferent. And what really strikes us about great leaders in these organizations is how real they are. Right?

They're authenticity, [00:44:00] they're humble. Yes. You know, sort of Absolutely. They're 100% committed to the mission. Absolutely, but they're just real. They come across as very real and people orient to that instantly, right? This is someone that I want to follow. You know what you're doing. You care about me, I trust you, right?

As an organization, I think that's, they're true to their own principles. I think

that's what permeates the organization and, and you know, it's funny, we work with a lot of these clients for a really long time, and over time they create the organization in their own image. Uh, honestly, you know, the organization starts to sort of mirror them, uh, in, in their principles in a really, really good way.

Uh, and we've seen transformational change happen, sort of driven not by force of personality, but by force of principle. I think, you know, from the, from the top down that these are people of principle, these are people of strong values and the [00:45:00] organization, uh, follows them. Uh, you know, kind of almost completely, it's, it's, it's, uh, a beautiful thing and sometimes we stand in awe, uh, of some of these leaders that are capable of, of leading that kind of change.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Would you say though, that can. Also surface if you have a leader that's not so great.

Chris Vaughn: Absolutely.

Absolutely. And they also create the organization in their own image, unfortunately.

You know, who, who orient to the wrong thing or who are uh, who are, who are not really genuine, who, who aren't a hundred percent committed in their bones, you know, to the mission and the principles of the organization.

We can tell really quickly, I think, but I, you know, I think the, the staff and members can too. I think it's, I think it's transparent to people. I just do, whether they, whether they're gonna articulate it or not. You feel it, you know, in your bones that this person's not the real deal.

They're not really, and they may be good managers, right.

And they may be good at managing up and they may be good on [00:46:00] television, uh, or whatever, but they're not good leaders. Right. Because they're really not the real deal. It it, I think it is. It happens both ways. It really does.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Oh, this has been so good,

Chris Vaughn: Yeah.

Thanks. It's

been fun. Yeah. I appreciate the chance.

Sadaf Beynon: No, it's, it's my pleasure to have you. I really enjoyed, um, listening to your story, your insights, and it's really clear that the work you do is not only strategic, but deeply meaningful as well.

Chris Vaughn: Yeah. Thank you so much. Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: welcome. Before we wrap up though, where can people connect with you or learn more about your work?

Chris Vaughn: sequenceconsulting.com. Come to our website. You can learn more about us and our clients and, and the work we do and, uh, some of the, some of the research and the insights that we've published over the years.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. Thank you so much. And to those listening, you'll find all the links and details for Chris in the description. And if you're someone who's been thinking about using conversations to grow your own business, maybe even through a podcast, but don't have time to handle all the moving parts, that's exactly what we help with [00:47:00] at Podjunction. You can find out more at podjunction.com or just reach out to me on LinkedIn. So that's it for today. Bye from Chris and from me, and I'll see you next time.