How To Lead When Everything Is Falling Apart | Terry Tucker

Terry Tucker: [00:00:00] Your life does matter. I promise you. There are people out there watching how you handle your adversity in life. Some you may know, some you may have no idea they're watching from afar. And would give almost everything they have just to walk five minutes in your shoes. So don't ever think your story, your situation doesn't matter.

It absolutely matters. It matters to somebody else. Hopefully it matters to you as well.

Sadaf Beynon: Welcome to Conversations That Grow the show where we explore how the right conversations can shape our business leadership and even the way we see the world. I'm Sadaf Beynon, and today I'm joined by Terry Tucker. Terry is a former SWAT team, hostage negotiator, cancer warrior, author and speaker whose life is a masterclass in resilience mindset and leadership.

Welcome to the show, Terry. It's great to have you here.

Terry Tucker: Well, it's great to be here. Thank you very much. I'm looking forward to talking with you.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. Now, Jerry, given everything you've [00:01:00] experienced personally and professionally, I imagine you've had a few conversations that left a lasting mark. So to kick us off, what's one conversation that changed the way you think about leadership, influence, or growth?

Terry Tucker: I, I, I think that's a pretty easy question for me. And in 2012, I was diagnosed with a. A rare form of cancer, a rare form of melanoma, and most people think a melanoma is too much exposure to the sun. Mm-hmm. Affects the melon, the pigment in our skin. My cancer has nothing to do with that. It's a rare form that appears on the bottom of the feet, palms of the hands.

Mine appeared on the bottom of my foot, and I was told in 2012 that I would be dead in two years. That medical science had nothing to offer me. And so I think when you. When you're given, or at least I felt, when you're given a death sentence, how can you turn that death sentence into a life sentence? And that's really 13 years later, I'm still here, uh, through the grace of God, through some [00:02:00] great doctors and, and nurses that have taken care of me through some medicines that aren't even available to the public at this point in time.

Mm. So I've been very fortunate. And, you know, we're all going to die. I think, you know, the, the outcome of living, loving and laughing is that we get to die. That's, that's life. That's the way it is. So I don't spend a lot of time worrying about the dying anymore. I spend much more time thinking about the living.

Sadaf Beynon: That's great. That sounds very inspirational. Terry, I would love to know a little bit more about your story. So how did that, um, or how did, like when did you find out what, what happened? Everything around it.

Terry Tucker: Sure. So I was a girl's high school basketball coach and I had a, a security consulting business on the side.

Uh, and I had a callous break open on the bottom of my left foot, right below my third toe. And initially didn't think much of it. 'cause as a coach you're on your feet a lot. Hmm. But after a few weeks of it not healing, I went to see, uh, a podiatrist, a foot doctor, friend of mine, and he took an X-ray. He said, Terry, I think you have a cyst in there and I can [00:03:00] cut it out.

And he did, and he showed it to me and it was just a little gelatin sack with some white fat in it. No dark spots, no blood, nothing that gave either one of us concern. But fortunately or unfortunately, he sent it off to pathology to have it looked at. And then two weeks later, I get the call from him. And as I mentioned, he was a friend of mine and the more difficulty he's having explaining to me what's going on.

The more frightened I am becoming until finally he just laid it out for me. He said, Terry, I've been a doctor for 25 years and I have never seen the form of cancer you have. You have this incredibly rare form of melanoma. And because my cancer was so uncommon, he recommended I go to MD Anderson Cancer Center in Houston and be treated for it.

And that's what started my now 13 year legacy through cancer.

Sadaf Beynon: Oh wow. So where were you before? I know you went to Houston for the treatment, but where were you based?

Terry Tucker: I, I, we were living in Houston at the time. Oh, right,

Sadaf Beynon: okay. Okay. So

Terry Tucker: yeah, I was very lucky. [00:04:00] That's convenient. Lucky Anderson was like 15 minutes away from me, so,

Sadaf Beynon: wow.

That's a blessing in itself, isn't it? It was one less thing to have to think about. So was it, was it routine to send something like that off to, to the pathologist even though there was nothing to be concerned about?

Terry Tucker: I mean, there was nothing visually to be concerned about, but I, I think now it's just standard practice that, right, if you remove something, you just send it off to pathology because you know there's that one in a hundred or one in a thousand chance that, oh, wait a minute, this is something more than just what looks like an innocuous cyst that's in the bottom of your foot.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. So tell me more about when you, when you went through that process, process of really understanding the weight of what he was saying to you as a friend and as a doctor. What was, what went through your head? Like, did something shift at, at in that moment, or was it over time? What, what did that look like?

Terry Tucker: So, I, I guess, lemme go back when, when I graduated from college, my father and my [00:05:00] grandmother who was living with us, were both dying of different forms of cancer. I. And I ended up living at home for, for three and a half years, helping my mom care for them as they passed away. And I had been a college athlete.

I, I've always been physical, I've always tried to do the right things when it came to my health. And so, you know, when my dad died, it's like every year I'm having a physical exam, whatever the test the doctor wants to do, that's what we're doing. And so I've done that throughout my life. And then I get this incredibly rare form of melanoma, and I know I went through all the stages of that.

We would associate with grief. You know, first there was that denial. I can't possibly have cancer. I've done everything right in my life. And then there was sort of an anger phase. You know, I can't possibly have cancer. I've done everything right in my life. And then there was sort of a bargaining with God.

Our daughter was in high school at the time, and it was like, okay, God let me live long enough to see her [00:06:00] graduate from high school. And then I absolutely got to a point where I was down, I was depressed, I was feeling sorry for myself. But then I came out the other end and was like, well, this sucks, but I'm gonna have to embrace the suck.

You know? I do not like the cards that I've been dealt. But I'm gonna have to play these cards to the best of my ability. And, and so I don't know if it was so much of a shift, it was just going through those stages and coming out the other end and saying, okay, I don't like what's going on here, but I don't have any choice as to, you know, I mean, I can't curl up in a ball and say, oh, wo was me.

Well, I guess I could have, but that's just not the kind of person that I am. So it's like, all right. I'm gonna attack it. I'm, you know, and I've heard people talk about cancer, like, you know, you need to make peace with your cancer. It's part of you. I mean, I'm not making peace with anything. There are no peace talks going on here.

We're attacking and we're trying to beat this thing 'cause it's trying to kill me. Mm-hmm. So I'm gonna try to beat it back so that I can have as much time as I possibly [00:07:00] can with my family and my friends.

Sadaf Beynon: That's great. It, the, your, the stages that you talk about sound very familiar to the, to the grief stages.

Terry Tucker: Oh, absolutely. Yeah. You know, Elizabeth Kubler, Kubler Ross', you know, the, the seven stages of dying, or five stages, whatever it ended up being. Mm-hmm. And, and yeah, it's, that's exactly what it was. I mean, I didn't really, I didn't really equate it to that at the time. Mm-hmm. You know, it was just kind of these, you, you know, I was, I was so overwhelmed by my wife tells the story, she said that the oncologist and, and I had a great oncologist, uh, pulled her out of the exam room.

And asked to talk to her by herself, which obviously made me a little uncomfortable, but my wife relates to the story better than I do. She was like, I've gotta, I've gotta tell him that he's probably gonna be dead in two years. How is he gonna handle that? Hmm. And my wife just kinda laughed at her and said, yeah, you go ahead and tell him that and see if he believes you.

I, I mean, the thing that I found about this is that doctors, and, and this is [00:08:00] gonna sound kind of goofy, but this is kind of the way I look at it. Doctors are kind of like. Bookies in Las Vegas, you know the, the gambling mecca. You know, they look at you based on your age, your overall health, and the stage of your cancer, and they give you odds.

They say, you know you, you'll live X. But what doctors don't know is that you want to see your daughter graduate from high school. You want to see your daughter graduate from college. You wanna walk her down the aisle. You want to play with your grandkids. And having something to look forward to, something that's, that's out there and, and, and not 'cause, 'cause cancer just, I mean, it's in your face.

It's right here. It, it, a lot of times it smothers you. You gotta have something to look forward to. And I think if you do, it keeps you moving forward. It keeps you Okay. I'm willing to do that. I know this hurts, I know this is uncomfortable, but you know what? I'm looking forward to something down the road.

And having that something to look forward to, I think is incredibly powerful.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm. I think what would've caused a lot of people [00:09:00] to give up. It's, um, listening to you, you've consistently, consistently chosen resilience instead. How does a leader's mindset shape their ability then, do you think, to influence and lead others?

Well, especially during tough seasons like this.

Terry Tucker: I mean, a leader should be about supporting their, their troops, their team, their whoever. They're, they're leading, and I'm not really leading anybody now. I'm, I I don't have, I mean, I, I have a small LLC, but that's more for my writing and my speaking. But it, it's, the way I look at what I do now is I have a very strong faith in God and the way I look at how I'm leading.

Is basically, I believe God is using my infirmity, my malignancy to show people, you know, I'm an outward, a visible sign to show people his love, his mercy, his grace, his [00:10:00] power, his strength, his healing. I. And that's kind of the way I am. I mean, it's like, use me God. Do you, I mean you made me, you might as well use me, you know, to something that's beneficial.

And I, I get treated, uh, now every six weeks. Just recently that changed. I was getting treated every three weeks for a week at the hospital. And you could sit in the waiting room and you could look at people come into that waiting room that first time there, scared to death, you know, kind of that deer in headlights look.

Just I, you know, so in their head, and I would just kinda wheel over to them and just say, hi, how you doing? And I think it's more about people saying, oh my gosh, somebody sees me. I'm not just a, a, a, a random patient, you know, that's gonna be part of the hundred that get treated at this infusion center every day.

I'm an actual human being and, and whenever I go back for my treatment, I'll always look at 'em. It's like, Hey. I've been coming here for five [00:11:00] years. These are the best nurses. They will take care of you. You are going to be okay, and you can just kind of see them, you know, kinda deflate a little. Oh, okay. All right.

I, I don't have to carry this tension. I don't care. I have to carry this weight on my shoulder of, of am I gonna die? Is this gonna be successful? What are the side effects gonna, all the things that go through your head when you, you start a new drug therapy. And so it's, that's, that's how I can lead.

Mm-hmm. So it, it's, it, it ends up not being about you. You know, the, the United States Marine Corps talks about leaders eat last, you know, and what that means is you, your troops, the people you're le, those people get the food, those people, and whatever's left over, that's for you. And if nothing's left over, then you don't eat that mm-hmm.

At that particular meal. So it is putting others before yourself. And when you have cancer. That's, that's hard to do in a lot of ways 'cause I think cancer tends to isolate us mm-hmm. From our friends [00:12:00] initially, our family. And if you go through it long enough, even yourself, it tends to isolate you from the person you are or you were.

So you, you have to make a conscious effort to say, what's the meaning in this misery? And how am I going to use this misery to lead other people?

Sadaf Beynon: That's, you've, there's so much there that you've said. Thank you, Terry. I, I completely understand what you're saying and, and I agree that leadership is not just about leading, x, x number of people in a workplace or whatever.

It's very much about influence. Who you have in, who you have influence over who's looking up to you. It could be in the home. It could be in the workplace. It can, you know, be anywhere on the tennis court, whatever. It I think it's also really evident that, that the Lord's working in, in you and through you, because when you talk about, um, wheeling over to somebody else and just talking to them and asking how they're doing, as you say, in a situation where you've got cancer, it can be very easy to become, um, quite [00:13:00] insular where you're just looking at yourself.

But to actually see others and not just be focused on yourself is, is quite a big thing.

Terry Tucker: You know, it can be, and, and I, I, I'll give you a quick story. This is a, all I got is sports and nursing stories. This could be a nursing story. Love it. You know, and, and so this was when I initially started at the infusion center, so almost five years ago.

This was a nurse, she's about 25 years old, so a relatively young nurse, already a nurse, but learning how to do things on the unit where I was getting treated. And about six months later, she was taking care of me by herself, and she came in and she said, Terry, I've got a story I want to tell you. But I don't know how to tell it to you and see if I didn't, I didn't know how to respond to that.

I mean, what do you, what do you say when, and it was like, well, I, I hope you decide. You want to tell me? It sounds like I might enjoy hearing it. So, you know, that's how I responded. And, and so she's in and out for the next couple hours and then comes in, sits down. She's like, all right, here's the deal. She said, when I first met you, I was going to get [00:14:00] out of nursing.

I'd had a very good friend of mine die. I was in a really dark place. I talked to my family, I was gonna quit nursing and I was gonna go to work for Amazon, and she said, and then I met you. And I see what you go through. I have a very bad reaction to the medication that I had. And she said, you keep coming back every day, every third week, every, you know, most people would be like, I am not doing this.

She said, but you keep coming back. And she said, and then I went, when I was taking care of you into your file, and I dug deeper and I started reading about, you know, your foot being amputated in 2018, your leg being amputated in the middle of Covid pandemic and you know the tumors you have in your lungs.

And she said, when I finished reading your story. I knew I was where I was supposed to be. Now, if she would've never told me that story, I would've had no idea that my life had impacted her. Mm-hmm. In such a positive way. So anybody who's listening to us right now who thinks, uh, you know, my, I, I'm nobody, my life doesn't matter.

Your [00:15:00] life does matter. I promise you. There are people out there watching how you handle your adversity in life. Some you may know, some you may have no idea they're watching from afar. And would give almost everything they have just to walk five minutes in your shoes. So don't ever think your story, your situation doesn't matter.

It absolutely matters. It matters to somebody else. Hopefully it matters to you as well.

Sadaf Beynon: Yes, absolutely. Um, Terry, you said something just a short while ago, meaning in the misery or meaning in your misery. I'd love to know more about how you coined that phrase.

Terry Tucker: I, yeah, it, it's, it's good alliteration, so It is, yeah.

I mean, like, it's, it's, you know, what's, what's the meaning in your misery? What's the message in your misery? What are you supposed to learn? I don't think we, we go through these things just to go through them. I think either we're supposed to learn something or we're supposed to teach something to other people through this.

And, and I, I picked that up 'cause I mean, there were. I, I [00:16:00] mentioned that I was told I'd be dead in two years when I initially was diagnosed and my doctor put me on, uh, a weekly injection of a drug called interferon, which is, she said, this is not a cure. All we're doing is kicking the can or trying to kick the can down the road in the hopes of buying you more time to have more therapies come available and.

I, I was, I, I, the interferon for me was a horrible, nasty, debilitating drug. I got terrible, so flu-like symptoms for two to three days every week after those injections. Mm-hmm. And I took those weekly injections for almost five years. So imagine having the flu every week for five years and knowing this isn't gonna cure me.

I'm gonna, you know, there's, there's, we're just trying to buy time in the hope that there's something down the road. And there was a time where I was so sick of being sick that I literally prayed to die. That it was, all right, God, take me out of this. I am [00:17:00] not contributing. You know, I kind of felt there were two camps.

There was the living and there was the not dying, and I was in the not dying camp. I wasn't living, I wasn't working, I wasn't, I didn't feel I was contributing. Sometimes even a good day for me was literally getting outta bed and making it to the couch. That was, that was a good day. And so it was like, come on, God, be done with this.

Let me go and let my family get on with their life. But obviously he didn't let me go. You know, obviously there was, you know, we, we, we like to think that we let the world revolves around us on our time. I always say it doesn't, it revolves on around God and God's time. Mm-hmm. Things happen in God's time, not in hard time.

Mm-hmm. We like him. We'd like to have a happen in hard time, but they don't. And so why was, why did I have to go through all that? Why? You know, and I spent a lot, a lot of time to sit around and think, boy, I feel lousy. Why? What, what are you trying, what message are you trying to teach me? And that was where I kind of came up with the find the meaning in the [00:18:00] misery that you're experiencing.

Sadaf Beynon: I really, really like that. I think it's, um, it offers so much insight into your journey and, um, how you. How you approach them. I mean, we come back to the word resilience again. Like, you know, you and, and also things like, you know, I, I'm not, I'm not going to befriend or accept this cancer. I'm going to fight it.

At What point did you feel, well, obviously when you were physically ready and able, um, did you feel like you knew what the next steps were?

Terry Tucker: I thought the next next step was I was gonna die. I, the, the medication eventually became so toxic to my body. Then I ended up in the intensive care unit of our hospital with a body temperature of 108 degrees, which is usually not compatible with being alive. The, the wonderful nurse manager pulled my wife out of the, the room as they were working on me and basically said, you should prepare yourself, because I've only seen two people with a fever this high, and neither one of them survived.

Mm-hmm. Well, I, I [00:19:00] did survive, and, and then it was well. The cancer came back almost immediately in the exact same spot in my foot where it had presented five years earlier. And so now you start thinking, I just went through hell for five years. For what? For it to come back. Almost like I said, like that it's back in the same place and stuff like that.

And I remembered a quote, quote from Winston Churchill, the Prime Minister of Great Britain during World War ii, who said, when you're going through, hell keep going. And so it was all right. I, I'm going, I just went through hell now. Now what? And literally, there were days where it was like, all right, God, what, what, what do you want?

You know what, why, why do you keep me hanging around here, you know, dealing with this? What's, what's the purpose? And that's right after that, I ended up, they're like, we got nothing. So we're gonna have to chop your foot off that. That was the first amputation. And then the cancer worked its way up my leg into my shin.

Two more surgeries in [00:20:00] 2019, and then the middle of the Covid pandemic. I had an undiagnosed tumor kind of in my ankle area of what was left of my leg. That grew large enough that it, it fractured my tibia, it broke my leg. Oh, wow. And my entire lower leg was full of cancer. And I found out I had tumors in my lungs and I was like, I, this is it.

This is obviously I'm done. And. It kind of a funny story, and this is a little bit of a long story, but you know, so my doctor wants to start me on chemotherapy. And I look at him and I'm like, okay, we're eight years into this fight. You told me I'd be dead after two. I, is it gonna save my life? And he was like, eh, probably not, but it might buy you some more time.

Mm-hmm. And I said, well, if it's not gonna save my life, if I'm gonna die anyway, I would rather not die going through all that stuff I said, but I'll go home and talk to my family about it. And, and this is a true story. It's a, it's really a funny story, but it's, it's actually a true story. So I go home and I start telling my wife and daughter about what the doctor wants.[00:21:00]

And like, I'm halfway through the story and my daughter like, all right, we need a family meeting. I'm like, family meeting. There's three of us. It's not like we got a board here or something like that, you know? So we sit around at the kitchen table and individually talk about how we all feel about me having chemo.

And then my daughter's like, all right, let's take a vote. How many people want dad to have chemotherapy? And my wife and daughter raised their hand. I'm like, wait a minute. Am I getting outvoted for something that I don't want to do? Mm-hmm. But I remembered when I was a police officer, when I was in the police academy, our defensive tactics instructor used to have us bring a photograph of the people we loved the most to class.

And as we were learning different techniques to defend ourselves, we were to look at that photograph. Mm-hmm. Because he reasoned you will fight harder for the people you love than you will fight for yourself. So I ended up taking chemotherapy, not because I wanted to, but because I love my wife and daughter more than I love myself.

And in hindsight, it was the right thing to do. It [00:22:00] was the bridge drug that got me to the clinical trial drug that I've been on for LA for the last, well over four years now.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. That's a great story. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah. That was good. Um, Terry, you've shared your story in so many different podcasts and stages, haven't you?

And clearly it resonates with people. So what do you think, um, sharing your why, sorry. Why do you think your, um, sharing your story matters and how can others use their own stories to connect and influence more meaningfully?

Terry Tucker: I, I think, you know, if you look at my story for 13 years and, and you know, the multiple amputations, the drugs, the, the number of times I've come so close to dying and, and should have died, you know, but I am still alive.

I, I think it gives people one of the biggest things that we need to keep moving on, and, and that is hope. It's like, look, if this guy can do it, and, and I am, I am the biggest wimp in the world. I, I mean, I don't want anybody to think, you know, that I'm Superman or anything. You're looking at me now. There's no s [00:23:00] on my chest that do not have a cape and fly around with magical power.

I, I mean, I cry, I get down, I feel sorry for myself. I, when I go through my therapy, it is, it is a very difficult time and I, I find that I am, you know, woe is me. This is not good. But as I mentioned a minute ago. I find a very easy way to get around that is to stop looking at me and go, go pick up the phone and call somebody.

You know, I've got plenty of people who have reached out to me that have cancer that I'm in touch with, or find that person in the waiting room at the infusion center and go up to them and say, how, how you doing? You know it's gonna be okay. These are the great people that you're gonna work with. Now all of a sudden, I'm not focused on me anymore.

I'm focused on another person. And I think that's a big part of leadership. You know, you want to develop the purpose of a leader is to develop more leaders. That that's, that's really, I think a, a huge part of what leadership is all about. To develop more people that can [00:24:00] be also be leaders and you can just pass the torch and things like that.

So it, it's, you know, I mean that's kind of a long-winded answer to your question, but

Sadaf Beynon: No,

Terry Tucker: that's. That's kind of the way it works for me.

Sadaf Beynon: No, I like that. I like that. And I, I think you're right. You never have to, you, you say, you know, instead of thinking about myself and I'm going inward, it's better to pick up the phone.

And I, I think you never really have to go far to find someone else who's hurting or is needing some encouragement or, you know, a phone call from a friend.

Terry Tucker: Yeah. And I mean, and it doesn't have to be cancer, you know? Yeah. It could, it could just be, you know, somebody's down, somebody's grandmother died, or mm-hmm.

You know, they lost their job or whatever, you know, they didn't get into the school they wanted to, whatever it is, just pick up the phone. And one of the things, as, as you mentioned at the beginning of the show, one of the things I did was I was a, a hostage negotiator for a SWAT team. And I, I actually was able to negotiate with people that were suicidal.

I mean, they're, they wanted to kill themselves. And [00:25:00] you know, you, I used to hear from people, it's like, well, did you notice any behavior changes? Sure, yeah. They were giving their stuff away. They were talking about death. They were, there was all kinds of things that was out of, out of the ordinary for them.

And you would ask, well, did you think that they might be will or going to harm themselves or kill themselves? Yeah. I thought about that. Well, why didn't you say anything? Because I was afraid that if I said something, I would put that suggestion, that idea in their head, into their mind. Hmm. And we used to have to try to, we used to try to educate people.

It's like, that's absolutely not the case. I mean, and I would do this if I thought somebody was, was gonna kill themselves. I would flat out ask 'em. It's like, you know, Hey, Bob, are, are you gonna kill yourself? If they're not, they're gonna say something like, no, Terry, you're an absolute idiot. Why would you say something like that to me?

But if they are, you have just opened the door, kind of like we were talking about the person in, in the waiting room. Oh my gosh, somebody sees me. Mm-hmm. Somebody notices me, somebody [00:26:00] notices the things I'm going through, and so it would be it. You, you know, so they're like, if you see somebody, you know, if, if you're somebody at school that's cleaning out their locker and taking all their books home, and, and you, you think that's out of the ordinary, are you okay?

You know, you're, you're not thinking of hurting yourself. 'cause if they're not, they're gonna say, no, I'm not gonna hurt myself. I just got a lot of studying to do. But if they are. It's like, oh my gosh, somebody sees me. I, I'm, I'm not, you know, I'm, I'm in a school with a thousand people, but I feel like I'm the only person here.

I'm all alone. Mm-hmm. So if, if you feel that, and then they're like, well, what if they start talking to me about stuff? What do I do? What? Just shut up and listen. That's all you gotta do. You don't have to have a psychology degree or, you know, be a SWAT hostage. Go and just shut up and listen. Let 'em talk.

Let 'em get it out. Let him, that was one thing we did as negotiators, burn off that emotional energy, because I can't discuss solutions with you until I'm dealing with your rational brain. Your emotional brain is not gonna make good decisions.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. [00:27:00] Do you think it sometimes they just, they need to hear it back.

Terry Tucker: Yeah. Yeah. I, I just, you, you, you, you need those connections. Mm. And, and, and that's, there's a, there's a psychology professor at the University of Chicago who does this experiment, and I love this story. Who, who does this experiment with his students? And the idea is you go out and you get on a bus. And in three questions, you go deep with somebody.

So you get on a bus, sit down next to somebody you know, Hey, how you doing? Oh, I'm fine. How are you? Question one, and I'm just making this up. Yeah. Question two, what do you do for a living? Oh, I'm a doctor. Question three. Have you always wanted to be a doctor? It doesn't matter what they answer, they could say, no, I grew up on a farm and I wanted to be a veterinarian, but X, Y, and Z happened.

Or. My mother was a doctor, but died of breast cancer when she was 40, so I'm honoring her memory by being a, whatever they tell you now, you're deep with somebody because they're telling you their why, their why, their mission, their [00:28:00] purpose in life. We don't go deep with people anymore. Social media, let's just stay on the surface.

Everything's great, everything's wonderful. Well, I got news for you. Everything's not always wonderful in my life. Go deep with people. Have those connections with other human beings. That to me is one of the greatest things I can do in my life.

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. I like that. So what, what do you think, being a hostage negotiator, what do you think, those experiences that you had there, what did they teach you about? Trust and influencing others?

Terry Tucker: That's a great question. And, and, and, and you hit the nail on the head and you said, you said the, you know, you said the magic word and the magic word is, is trust. Mm-hmm. I mean, you and I, you know, have, have, we have a previous podcast that didn't work out for, due to technical issues.

Now we're back together. I'm dealing with a person who I've never met before. Who's, if you're talking to me and your house is surrounded by the police, you probably have the worst day of your life. And many times [00:29:00] we don't even know why we're there. What precipitated this, what caused this person to grab a gun and barricade themselves or take their spouse or their mother or whoever, hostage.

And so we would start out with basically that human connection. I would never say, Hey, I'm Sergeant Tucker. I would say. Hi, I am Terry. What's your name? Mm-hmm. And a lot of times you get, you don't need to know my name. Okay. What do you want me to call you? You know, call me Jeff. Okay, fine, Jeff, and this is where we would start.

We would start with what we call tactical empathy. I think you can get rid of the word tactical and just talk about empathy. Help me Jeff, understand what's going on, or help me, Jeff, understand where you're coming from today. And then be quiet and let Jeff talk. Mm-hmm. You know, because understanding and, and the important word there is understanding if, if I was negotiating with a homicide suspect that just murdered [00:30:00] three people, I wasn't going to agree that what they did was correct, but that understanding leads to trust.

To trust and trust leads to a point where I could potentially get you out safely. Think about any relationship you have in your life. That's good. You know, parent, child, husband, wife, boss, subordinate. If it's a good relationship, the foundation is trust. So we would start with empathy. Help us to understand we would use how and what questions we would stay away from.

Why questions. And the only reason we did that is think about when you were growing up, when you messed up and when you did something goofy. What did your parents say? Why did you do that? Oh. So why questions sound for us accusatory. Oh, you know, if, if I looked at you and said, Hey, why did you wear that top today?

Would you, oh, wait a minute, does Terry not like what I'm wearing today? I can get to the same answer by saying, well, what made you decide to wear [00:31:00] that outfit today? That's a softer question. Mm-hmm. I get the same information, but it's a softer question. So how and what questions. And the other thing I'll say is, and the reason hostage negotiation was so exhausting.

Is you had to get down in the weeds with these people. You had to get down in the mud with them. If they're ranting and raving and yelling and screaming about their mother, and you say something, you parrot or mirror back to them, oh, you, you seem like you're a little upset with your mother. No, you totally miss what they're saying.

You need to be, you're pissed as hell at your mother, aren't you? Hmm. Yes. Mm-hmm. Again, that's. Terry gets me, he sees what I'm going through. He understands the emotion by mirroring that emotion.

Sadaf Beynon: Mm-hmm.

Terry Tucker: Again, that builds trust. That gets to a point where hopefully I can get you out safely.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. It's, um, good listening skills.

Terry Tucker: Very, yeah. And it's, it's active listening. And, and let me, let me give you, if you don't mind, of, let me give you [00:32:00] the formula that, that we were given as negotiators, and I'll give you the formula and explain it to you and then tell you why we were given it. Okay. So the, the formula of how we as human beings communicate was 7 38 55.

So 7% of how a message comes across are the words that we use. And how many times have I know I've done this? How many times have you said something you'd be like, Ooh, I wish I hadn't said that, or, I wish I would've said it in a different way. That's only 7% of how that message is communicated. Mm-hmm. 38%.

Is the tone of voice that you're using, are you real excited and you can't wait to tell 'em what's going on? You're talking like this, or are you kinda, uh, I don't know if this is gonna work. This is really bad. How is that tone of voice that you're using with that message or with that, with those words?

And then 55%. So more than half of how that mu message comes across to another person is our body language and our facial expressions. Hmm. And the reason we were given that [00:33:00] formula was if somebody was barricaded in a room with a gun, I was not in the room with them, so I did not have the luxury of that 55%.

I didn't have the luxury of saying something to them and see them kind of roll their eyes and say, oh, I can't believe Terry said that to me. So we had to get good at figuring things out, certainly based on what people were saying, but also what they weren't saying and how they were saying it.

Sadaf Beynon: So how did that, how did you figure that, how did you figure out the non-verbals from the words they were using and the tone?

Terry Tucker: So, there were a lot of times where we would be, you know, we would be over here talking with somebody about whatever. It when the real problem was over here and they didn't trust us enough to tell us what was really going on. So a lot of it was tactical empathy, help us to understand how and what questions, letting them burn off a lot of that [00:34:00] emotional energy mirroring or parroting what they were saying.

And the other thing, and, and this you, we should use, all of us should use this. Is we would always be curious. Mm-hmm. So you don't think you can do that? And then we would go silent because we don't like silence and communication. The other person would start to talk again, and the more somebody talks, the more information you get.

You get. So depending on what they're saying, oh well what do you think we could do to make you feel heard? Silence. Let them start to respond. So it it, I mean, it, it's, I was on a podcast yesterday and the person said, well, it sounds kind of manipulative. And I said, well, it, it, it's manipulative only in this is how we function.

This is how we communicate as human beings. I'm not trying to get over on the person. As a matter of fact, there were times when we would say [00:35:00] to people, look, this needs to be a relationship based on trust and trust is. We're honest with each other. So if you ever think that I'm trying to get over on you, if you ever think I, I'm, I'm lying to you, I want you to stop the conversation and call me out on it and we'll talk about it, and we never mm-hmm.

I'll underline that. Capital letters. We never lied to people. Hmm. People would say to us, Hey, I'll put the gun down. I'll come out, but you gotta promise me I'm not gonna go to jail. And we would have to say something like, really, we've been talking for five hours and I haven't lied to you yet, and you want me to lie to you now?

Mm-hmm. Or, you know, we would say, sorry, when you do come out, you are gonna go to jail. And then we would try to deflect the conversation to something more palatable, something they could, you know, something more positive and things like that. Yeah. And, and, and, and this is gonna sound kind of goofy, but the reason we never lied.

Is because there was a very good chance that a year from now, two years from now, three years from now, we would be [00:36:00] right back negotiating with this person. Because the underlying issue, maybe it was their mother, maybe their mother was always pushing their buttons, saying stupid stuff. And you know, well, guess what?

Mom's still alive. Mom's still pushing their buttons, saying things that upset 'em. And if we were back there three years negotiating again, and that person felt, you know, Terry, the last time I talked to you, you lied to me. What's happened there? Not a good relationship. He doesn't trust me anymore. I gotta go away.

Another negotiator's gotta come in and start from ground zero. I mean, if he felt that, I've been honest with him, we can start where we are and move forward in that regard.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, that's, that's fascinating. Terry, what if there are, um, leaders who are struggling with being able to establish trust or build trust whether it's people, whether there's their, their sub in their subordinates, or whether it's home or, you know, whatever environment they're in, what could they do to, to, [00:37:00] um, grow their impact and influence with that person?

Terry Tucker: So I, I guess lemme give you a story. And, and this happened to me when, in, in my work life that that'll illustrate that.

So let's say there's a problem at work, there's an issue. What happens a lot? Boss comes in, you know, everybody's sitting around a conference table, boss comes in, sits down and says, all right, here's how I see the, here. Here's what the problem is. Identifies the problem, and then says, here's how I think we can fix it.

Now I'd like to hear what the rest of you think about this. What idiot is gonna say anything other than what the boss just said.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah,

Terry Tucker: a better way. And this is kind of the answer to your question. A better way is to come in, sit down at that conference table, state what the problem is, and then say, what do you think about fixing this?

How do you think we should do this? You do this every day. You're much [00:38:00] closer to this than I am. Mm. What are your thoughts? What are your ideas? That opens it up to, Hey, he wants to hear or she wants to hear what I have to say. And that's the kind of stuff that builds trust. Do I care what you say or am I, I, you know, I'm the boss, so I make all the decisions.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah,

Terry Tucker: that's not a good leader, a good leader. It, it's more collegial. It's more bringing people together to identify the problem and identify solutions. And then at the end of the day, it's the leader's job to say, all right, I'm, I've settled on this particular situation as to how we're gonna handle it.

Hmm, maybe it's the right way, maybe it's not. But by giving everybody a chance, by, by making people feel valued. And, and I, when I was in, um, when I was working at the hospital, I was in the human resources department and I would see the surveys that would come back and what motivated people was not money, was not benefits.

It was, do I make a difference [00:39:00] here? Am I am, are my opinions or my idea is valued here? That's what's, that's what keeps people interested. Mm-hmm. That's what ke what keeps people. Putting the organization f you know, front and center keeps moving the organization forward. If, if you don't feel you have a voice, all you're gonna do is sit back, do your eight to five and go home.

I want to be a leader that asks people, 'cause I'm not that smart. I, I wanna surround myself with people that are really smart and say, okay, here's the problem. How do you guys think we should fix it? Yeah, I like that. Okay, we're gonna do this and then make this decision and go with it.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, yeah. No, I agree.

I think everyone needs that sense of belonging, don't they?

Terry Tucker: Yeah. Mm. That they matter.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Terry, what have you learned about the way, um, challenges have shaped your communication?

Terry Tucker: I, I, you've probably figured out that I could talk your ear off. I, I mean, I, I, I can't, I can talk and talk and talk, but, but one of the biggest things I can also do is listen.

Mm-hmm. Is, is, is. [00:40:00] Okay. You, you should have said something different than what you said. It is something, and I can also look at people's faces and say, mm-hmm. She's not having a good day today. And I do that with some of the nurses when I, you know, I, I'll come in and you can just look on their, the look on their faces.

They're not happy. They're, they're not having a good day and you know, everything okay. And I've been coming there long enough and one of the nurses made a comment. About me. She said, half the nurses here wish you were their father. The other half wish you were their husband. And so, you know, I I, they're like my family.

They're like my second family and, and I care about them and they care about me. And I've been with them through, you know, dating, marriage bursts of their kids, divorces, deaths of their families, empty nesters, all, all that. 'cause there's such a wide range. But it's, do I see you? Do I care? About you. Do you know what's going on in your life?

And it, and it, and it doesn't take much just to look at a person and, and you can kind of tell Mm, you [00:41:00] know, are, are they acting the way they're normally act? No, they're not, they're not feeling good, or they're, they don't feel good today. They're, maybe they're sick, maybe they're getting over covid, whatever it ends up being, you know, and they're like, I'm just, I'm just trying to make it through the day and just by, by somebody like me, a patient saying, Hey, I see you, you okay?

Mm-hmm. You know, Hey, I'm down in chair 38 today. You know, you wanna come down and shoot the breeze on your break? Come on down, we'll talk about it. Whatever. So it's, it's that kind of mm-hmm. I, I think that's, that's what's important to me. That's what's important I think, to a leader.

Sadaf Beynon: when You were talking there, it echoed what you said earlier about seeing others, like really, truly seeing them.

And, um, I'm wondering whether, when you've. Been in a place of such great challenge and you've, you know, having to, really fight for life. Whether that just makes you more aware of the different, um, problems that people face and how it affects them because you're, you've been there, you are there, and I guess in some cases too, right?

Terry Tucker: Oh, absolutely. I, I, I, I mean, [00:42:00] it's. I, I, I, I know what it, what it's like to fight for your life, and, and I can tell from a lot of times my days in law enforcement, I mean, let's face it, you know? Mm-hmm. I mean, most people don't hang out with cops and stuff like that. So you, you, you, you deal with people in very challenging times when, when they're having bad days and things like that, and you can kind of reap people.

Mm-hmm. If you're good at it, the longer you do it, the better you are reading people and things like that. So Yeah. Our, you know. Mm. Yeah, I, I, I've known you for four years now, and you're just not acting the way I normally expect you to act. So, and, and maybe I step over the bounds sometimes and you know, you okay, is everything all right?

Mm-hmm. You know, and things like that. But that's just, it's not a, I want to know. It's more for me. Are you okay? Because I've been there when, no, I'm not okay not having a good day. This, I, I don't know if I can get through this kind of thing. So,

Sadaf Beynon: yeah, I think having people that really. Can see you and really do understand you, and like, you know, the pe like how you're describing [00:43:00] saying to someone, you don't seem em yourself.

I think that's a real gift to have someone like that. , that's what a

Terry Tucker: leader should do. I, I mean mm-hmm. You know, that, that's, you're not, you're not act, are you okay? You know, no, I, I, I don't feel good today. All right. Maybe I can put you in assignment where, you know, it's not gonna be as hard for you today.

You know, I'm gonna look out for you and things like that. And, and then I think when it comes to a point where you're subordinates, Hey, I need somebody to look out for me, they're, yeah, Terry, look down for me, it's, it's, it's not a quid pro quo. It's more, it's caring. It's just caring and seeing other human beings and want the best.

I, you know, I a lot of times talk about, and guys don't talk about love, but I talk about love a lot, and it's not love, it's not romantic love. Mm-hmm. It's not like I wanna get married or anything. It's, it's spiritual love and I define it as willing the good of the other. I just want, want what's best for you.

I want what you want. I want what's good for you. That's that kind of love. And expressing that to other people, regardless of your relationship, I think is at least something [00:44:00] that's very important to me.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. I, I see that it's very clear in, in when you're talking and the stories you've been sharing.

Thank you for that. Sure. Terry, is there anything else, you'd like to share?

Terry Tucker: I'm gonna tell a story, it's gonna start out kind of weird, but trust me, hang with me. Okay. It's a real good story and it's a true story happened back in the 1950s at Johns Hopkins University here in the United States. There was a professor by the name of Richter who was doing an experiment with rats.

And this is why, you know, oh, he is gonna tell a rat story. Yeah. I'm gonna tell a rat story. Hang with me folks. So. He wanted to see how long the average rat could tread water and the average rat treaded water for about 15 minutes before it would sink and drown. So he did a second experiment. Different rats put 'em in a tank of water that was over their head, and he watched them and just as they were ready, getting ready to sink and drown, he reached in, grabbed them, pulled them out, dried 'em off, and let 'em rest for a while.

And then he took those exact same rats and put 'em back in that [00:45:00] exact same tank of water. And the second time around, on average, those rats treaded water for 60 hours. Now think about that the first time, 15 minutes. It's not like, you know, you're gonna flunk a test or your marriage is gonna fail, your business is gonna go under, you're gonna die.

And the second time around 60 hours, which taught me two things. Number one, exactly what we were talking about before, the importance of hope in our lives that if we know we're doing the right things, maybe not today, maybe not this month, maybe not even this year, but if we know we're doing the right things, there's a good chance we'll get to where we want to be or get what we want.

Nothing's a hundred percent. And the second thing it taught me. Was how much more our physical bodies can handle than we ever thought they could. I mean, we give up. We quit long before our bodies do because we listen to our minds. Our minds say, this hurts, this is uncomfortable. Stop it. And we do. Now, don't get me wrong, I think everybody has a breaking point, but that breaking point is so much further down the road than we [00:46:00] ever give ourselves credit for.

Like I say, we quit. We give up. We give in long before our bodies say, I can't do it anymore. And the reason we do that is because our minds tell us it hurts. And it's our ma mammalian brain kicking in saying, Hey, don't, don't do anything. Don't do anything that that might hurt you. Sit back. But we know the only way we grow, the only way we develop, the only way we get better at anything is if we step outside those comfort zone and we do things that make us uncomfortable.

Sadaf Beynon: I love that. How do you, um, how do you train your mind to not give in?

Terry Tucker: Uh, that's a great question and, and I'll, I will give you what I do, and I do this every single day of my life, okay? And I would recommend it for everybody. Do one thing, at least, one thing every day that scares you, that makes you nervous, that makes you uncomfortable, that's potentially embarrassing.

It doesn't have to be a big thing, but if you do those small things every day. When the big disasters in life hit us and they hit us all, we lose somebody who's [00:47:00] close to us. We unexpectedly get let go from our job. We find out we have a chronic or a terminal illness. You will be so much more resilient to handle those things than those people who never step outside their comfort zones or never do anything uncomfortable.

Wow.

Sadaf Beynon: I like that. Thank you Terry. Sure. Thank you very much. This has been really great. I really appreciate you sharing with us.

Terry Tucker: Well, thanks for having me on. I really enjoyed talking with you.

Sadaf Beynon: No, my pleasure. Terry, before we wrap up though, where can our listeners contact you and learn more about motivational check?

Terry Tucker: Sure. So you can reach out to me motivationalcheck.com. Um, that's kind of my website and my blog. I've got all kinds of stuff on there, but I love hearing from people. So please reach out at motivationalcheck.com.

Sadaf Beynon: Awesome. Terry, thanks again for your time and for bringing such value to the show. And for those tuning in, thank you for joining us.

You'll find all the links and details for Terry in the show, in the show notes. And if you're someone who wants to grow your business through conversations on a podcast, but doesn't have the time to manage all the moving parts, [00:48:00] I can help you with that through Podjunction where we help leaders launch and grow strategic done for you podcasts.

That build trust and expand influence. If that sounds like something you've been thinking about, head over to Podjunction.com and book a free discovery call or reach out to me on LinkedIn. My details will also be in the show notes. I'd love to hear what you're working on. So from Terry and from me, thanks for listening and I'll see you next time.