CTG - Drew Donaldson

CTG - Drew Donaldson

Drew Donaldson: [00:00:00] the system that I use.

Has like a hundred percent success rate with people. Like, people take it and they go through it and they're like, I've never, no one's ever taught me how to sell like that. I'm like, yeah, because it, it goes counter to what most sales books will teach you about selling. And so if you just do this and you jump on the call, people will just give you their money because they feel like they can trust you.

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Sadaf Beynon: Welcome to Conversations That Grow, where we explore how meaningful conversations shape business, leadership, and the way we see the world. I'm Sadaf Beynon, and today I'm joined by Drew Donaldson. He's a strategist and AI early adopter, and the founder of GroHause. In this episode, we talk about Pivotal conversations, big business paths, and the shifts that are shaping the future.

Drew, welcome to the show.

Drew Donaldson: It's a pleasure being here, Sadaf.

Sadaf Beynon: Thank you, Drew. Um, I've, I've been really looking forward to this conversation because I know we didn't, we didn't get a chance to dig into everything in our pre-call, so I'm really looking forward to this.

Drew Donaldson: Me too. I, we had a very long pre-call and it was very enjoyable and we went, [00:01:00] we really could have recorded that whole thing and made a podcast out of it.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, we probably should have. Um, so Drew, let's start, was there ever a conversation where someone challenged your thinking in a way that really shook you or one where you walked away seeing things differently?

Drew Donaldson: Yeah. There, I mean, there's been a bunch of those kind of moments in my life. I mean, the one I, I.

Probably talk about the most is was back in my early years, I was in New York working at a studio, um, that did language dubbing for cartoons. And it was run by this guy, and I'll name drop him because I, I'm sure he'd get a kick outta it. Kip Kaplan. And he was far and away one of the most influential bosses I ever had because he, he was kind of this like New York City madman.

He just, he every rule in, in like what I thought a studio owner would look like. He [00:02:00] broke, uh, and he was, he was just this incredibly dynamic person. He had, he had won an award for producing, I think he won a Grammy or something for producing this, uh, Camino, or yeah, it was something like a Grammy or a, uh, like a, a platinum record or something for his work with the R&B band Camino.

And like we first bonded over that. 'cause I used to work in an r and b Soul station and I just. I, the whole time I worked with him, it felt like the ground was constantly moving under my feet. Like he was just such a powerhouse of a human being. And so I tried to absorb as much as my 22-year-old brain could take in at the time.

Um, but every day I was learning something new. And, but I think the most impactful lesson he ever taught me was, um, we were going out, uh, he, he, it was the end of the day, I was getting ready to go and he's like, uh, don't put your stuff away. You're coming to dinner with me. And I was like, like, I was like, oh, cool.

He's like, don't worry, we're not, we're not going far. We're going right across the street. There's this [00:03:00] burger joint. And it was like a, a, not a traditional burger joint. It's like a five star Michelin, like burger joint. It's called a, I don't know if it's still there. It's called Rare. Mm-hmm. And um, so I was like, oh, that's awesome.

Like I would never eat there as a broke 22-year-old. Yeah. Like fantastic. And he is like, we're meeting with an executive. And I forget if it was like, it was like TLC or HGTV or something like that. And this is a, an executive that, uh, Kip was bidding on a deal with. And um, so we're walking over and as we're crossing the street, he says, now I want you to, I, I'm gonna say this once and I want you to take it in.

We are not going to talk about business tonight. I was like, well, we're, we're going to meet with him. Aren't we bidding the show? Like, isn't that the purpose of having the dinner, like talking business? Like I thought that, that's what I thought the whole purpose was. He is like, I'm gonna say it again.

We're not talking business. I was like, alright. So I sit down and Kip is the life, like Kip is one of the best people that builds [00:04:00] relationship and rapport. He can build relation, a rapport with someone in five seconds. So he, he comes in and we sit at the table and he is just cracking up the, the, this executive the whole night long, like all night.

He's just has this guy rolling and they're talk and they're talking about motorcycle. They're talking about everything except. Like the business we're trying to do together. And at one point the guy even says, well, you know, I guess we really should talk about, um, you know, this deal or whatever. And kept, puts his hands up.

Like he's, he goes, we're not talking about business. And like, shuts the guy. This is a guy who's like, ready to cut even check. And he is like, we're not talking about that. And the guy's like, all right, fair, fair enough. We don't have to talk about business. So we go through this whole dinner, we have dessert and drinks after it's a whole thing.

And then we get up and Kip and I go back across the street, you know, say bye to the guy. Uh, he jumps into a, a cab or whatever, we cross the street. And I go, why? Like, why didn't, like he wanted to talk [00:05:00] about the deal. Why didn't you wanna talk about the deal? He's like, 'cause that dinner was not about the deal.

He's like, we're gonna get the deal. That's, that's a foregone conclusion that was about building a relationship because now he's not gonna think about any of the other deals on his table. He's just gonna be focused on how, what a great time he had with us and. I just thought that was insane. I was like, well, no, obviously, like he wanted to talk about the deal.

You shut him down. He is gonna walk away with that being like, Ugh, God. Like this guy wouldn't even let me talk about the thing we were meeting about. And sure enough, like a day or two later, the deal came in and signed, sealed and delivered. That's incredible. And just blew my mind that so much of business was so much more in the relationship than the actual numbers.

Hmm. Like at the end of the day, when you're operating at that high of a level, the numbers are irrelevant 'cause it's not his money. You're not picking his pocket. You know, he's looking for who is he gonna have the most fun with working with? And Kip is really fun to work with. [00:06:00] So naturally he picked Kip.

Sadaf Beynon: That's incredible. I, the, the way you describe him, it sounds like people are naturally drawn to him.

Drew Donaldson: Yeah, he is. Like, and, and it, what's so amazing about him is that he, um, I had, I had built his website while I was there 'cause he needed a new website and year, like a year ago, he text messaged me outta the blue and he said, Hey, I'm having this issue with my website, can you help me fix it?

And I got on a call with him and it's like, no time had passed. It's like I had just walked outta his studio yesterday and it's like, that's how strong of a personal connection he builds with someone is, you can not hear from Kip for 10 years and then Kip he'll pop back on your radar and it's just like you're hanging out with an old friend.

He's just, he's a absolute magnetic personality. Um, that's amazing. And he's, he's, and I think the, the chaos element in him I is what draws people in. Yeah. Because they never know what he's gonna do next. They never know, like. What's on, like, what's KIPP's next move? And so I think [00:07:00] that's why people are so drawn to him is because in a world where like usually uncertainty is a bad thing, he has an uncertainty in a really good way.

Yeah. Like it keeps you on your feet, it keeps you surprising you with stuff.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. There's never a dull moment it sounds like.

Drew Donaldson: Never. Never. Yeah. I, I can't remember. One boring day at work with kids.

Sadaf Beynon: That's great. It's great to have bosses like that. Drew. Um, I'm, I'm curious, when you were sitting there with them in the restaurant, did you ever feel outta place?

Drew Donaldson: Oh, a hundred percent.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. What was that like?

Drew Donaldson: Oh, I mean, you gotta, like, like I, I'm, I'm 22 years old. Mm-hmm. I am wearing a very ill-fitting suit, like, not a full suit, but like a, a dress shirt and a blazer. Yeah. Yeah. This executive walks in wearing like, full Armani, like, he, like the guy, looks like he just walked off a Hollywood set about like investment banking or something.

Like he's just so out of place. And yet Kip was, was dressed like me. You know, slacks in a shirt. He had [00:08:00] like all this confidence in the world to like, just like engage with this guy. And I did not have the, the credit, like I was just, this is like my first or second gig outta school. So I didn't have any of that confidence.

And so it was definitely this weird dynamic of like, I'm here, I'm here to absorb, not really add to the conversation much. And so like I found little openings where I could talk, like I, I didn't like do the awkward, like sit on the sidelines and not interact at all thing. But it was definitely this like yeah, I am, I am sitting with two really heavy hitters and I am, yeah.

Dreadfully. Outmatched. Yeah. Um. I, I had another scenario like that. I used to, so back before webinars were mainstream, I worked for a company that used to do webinars, but what they, they had this very complex process to do analyst days, which an analyst day is usually put on by a hedge fund or a private equity company.

And they bring in all of their investments, uh, to talk about like the different companies they're invested in. So usually it'll be like a [00:09:00] trend. It'll be like, you know, the Pacific Crest Healthcare Conference or something like that. And all the analysts from all the big banks and investment funds will come in to listen to, you know, how great these companies are doing so that these hedge funds can get more in investors into their hedge fund.

And so I would, uh, one of the, the nice parts about the job was that you got to eat the lunch that was catered and like, you gotta remember these there. This is pure whining and dining. So this is not McDonald's takeout, this is like lobster and steak. Every day. So like for a period of about a year when I was doing these, I was eating like lobster or a steak rather.

Yeah. Every single day. It was great. And like the best, like the best prime cuts New York had to offer in these incredibly lavish hotels. Wow. With like open bar and all, all of that kind of stuff. Like it was, it was unreal. And, uh, so there was one day I sat down, um, you know, usually, uh, we would get the food and we would eat in the conference room like every after everyone had [00:10:00] left.

But in this one hotel, it was this very. Luxurious hotel. They didn't allow that. They're like, no, you have to eat in the dining room. And I was working the conference by myself, so I didn't have any other colleagues there. And so I went to the dining room and I was like, well, where should I sit to, like the, the busboy or whatnot?

And he is like, just pick any table. Like, you know, you're in a suit, you're not gonna stand out. So I sat down and like the table was like the CEO of Northrop Grumman, an admiral in the Navy, like, you know, the head of business development for this other company. It was like all these people whose net worth combined could probably like be my entire family's six generations back net worth.

Like these are like ti literal titans of industry. And I'm just sitting there eating my steak and listening to them talk. And at one point, the guy next to me, not the, the like Northrop Grumman guy, but the guy next to me who is an analyst was like, what firm are you with? And I was like. [00:11:00] Oh, I, I am, uh, I, I forget what I, the company's name that I worked for, but I was like, I'm with this company.

And they're like, oh, what do they do? And I'm like, oh, well we broadcast these analyst days. And he was like, oh, that's really cool. And then he started like, talking with me and like, we had like this whole conversation. I'm just feel like I should not be talking. Like, I should just get up and leave. Like as soon they're gonna find out that I have, like, I know nothing.

I have nothing like they're gonna like throw me out by my boots. But like, he was like really, really nice the whole time and like, kept the conversation going. And afterwards he is like, really nice meeting you, you know, do you have a card? And I was like, no, I, I don't have a card. He is like, well, here, take mine.

You know, call me sometime. And like the, the guy was like one of the big uppity ups at General Dynamics,

Sadaf Beynon: like wow

Drew Donaldson: boy, like biggest military contractor on the planet. Way above my pay grade to be talking to this guy. But he was just so nice and like actually interested in what I do. And at any point in time when he realized that I was just a peon, he [00:12:00] could have just been like, yeah, this is not worth my time.

But he wasn't, and I just always, I always took that kind of lesson of like, no matter how high you, you raise in the ranks, you should never treat your status as like a, a requirement to talk to another person. Yeah. Because it's, it's just like, you never know what you might learn from someone that's below you on the food chain or, uh, you, you never know that what kind of connection you could build with someone that you might be able to give them a hand up.

So that was another kind of moment where I was grossly outmatched by the people at my table. But, you know, it was, it was definitely a learning experience.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. I mean, I can, I can see the, I can see the similarities even to the point where you talked about relationships, how they're so much more important than the business itself.

Kipp. Um, demonstrated that for you and now this guy at, you know, at, at this table as well, and you are saying the same thing about, actually, I don't ever wanna get, get to the point where I think that my status is, is a [00:13:00] requirement for who or who I can or can't talk to. Um, so yeah, I love, I love what you're saying.

So tell me more about that, about relationship versus business.

Drew Donaldson: So, I mean, my, my whole, like, a lot of that stuff, that groundwork that was laid early on in my career really influenced my approach to sales and business development in general. Uh, because what I realized very early on is like, I hated when I, you know, when you first started business, you get on everybody's list, everybody calls you, and just out of interest to see what, how people were selling stuff.

Because I was just getting started. I would take a lot of these calls and I just became like. Really turned off by how most salespeople would conduct their calls because all it was, it just felt like they were reading off of a script and they were telling me the same thing. They would tell, you know, they were, it was like a mad lib, like they were just dropping my name in where they would have the next clients.

Like, this is what we can do for [00:14:00] GroHause. This is what we can do for Acme Co. This is what we can do for whatever company. And so it just really like, kind of turned me off and I was like, man, I never want to do that. Like I, I don't wanna be on a script, I don't wanna follow this cadence that's so predictable and feels so disingenuous and like that I'm just talking to lead number 450 and after I get off this call, I'm gonna talk to Lead 451.

And so when I, when I, you know, went through that experience and then I started doing sales calls myself, I was like, alright, I gotta just, like, I, I just have to do the anti of that. What is the opposite of that? Well, what is the, the opposite of that is me not talking and letting the other person talk. And what I ended up doing is really stumbling, stumbling into a sales pattern that I didn't even understand it until I had hired a sales consultant.

'cause for a long time I thought I was just really bad at sales because I wasn't following all these rules. And so I hired the sales consultant and I was like, listen, here's my [00:15:00] requirements. I don't want to come off like a salesperson. I do, I am genuinely interested in what they have to say and what the problems are and how I can help them.

And I don't want to use any of these, like NFPQ or whatever that is, sales tricks that like, just make me feel gross. Like even teaching people that make me feel gross. I don't ever want to use them, uh, on, on somebody. And he is like, all right, well like break down your process. And I was like, well, I just, I usually start the call by saying, tell me about your business.

And then they just tell me everything about their business. Hmm. And he's like, well, don't you have, like, don't you set an agenda? And I was like, no, because that's too salesy. He's like, well, don't you like have like a list of questions? And I was like, no, not really, because like they just tell me everything.

When you ask like, tell me about your business, you tell me everything. And like, so what we ended up figuring out is like I was spending the first 15 minutes just listening to someone, uh, talk about their business. And that's what was increasing my close rate on these calls. Because I thought the [00:16:00] reason, the reason I thought I was bad at sales was because I didn't enjoy the sales process.

Because I thought I was always underperforming. 'cause I wasn't doing all these things. I was actually doing tremendously well. I just like when I shared my close percentage, he's like, I've worked with like some of the biggest companies on the planet. No one closes at that rate. So he is like, either your pricing, your services too low or you are like unbelievably good at this.

And I was like, well, it must be that I'm pricing the services too low. But then I went and looked the price, the pricing was, it was a little low, but it wasn't like tremendously low where it would like automatically like, oh yeah, you're gonna close everybody under the sun. And so once we dissected what my process actually was, he's like, you're actually doing a really good sales process.

You just aren't following it consistently. Sometimes you're doing this part which really works. Other times you're leaving that part out, like why are you doing that? It's like, well, you know, we run outta time 'cause the person talks too long. And so like that really helped craft a sales process that still feels authentic to me.

It still feels like I'm actually able to create rapport with a person and like [00:17:00] understand their business and not come off as salesy, but at the same time have a repeatable format that I can take into these calls that doesn't feel like a repeatable format for the person on the call. Yeah. And so that has that.

Early start in like how to build relationships and rapport with people was incredibly impactful when I went in and started like actually applying this in a formulaic way. Yeah. So that's, I think that's my, my, one of my biggest, um, like the, the course, you know, I built a couple courses over the years, but the one I'm most proud of is actually designed around the system that I use.

Okay. And it has like a hundred percent success rate with people. Like, people take it and they go through it and they're like, I've never, no one's ever taught me how to sell like that. I'm like, yeah, because it, it goes counter to what most sales books will teach you about selling. And so if you just do this and you jump on the call, people will just give you their money because they feel like they can trust you.

Because for the first 15 minutes all you're doing is letting 'em vent. Yeah. And like talk about how much help they need. And then you're just like, well, I can help. Here's how I can help. Yeah. [00:18:00] Would you like to help? Would you like my help? And then it's deal done. So it, it. Really, I, I wouldn't have been able to come up with that system if I hadn't had the influences early on to teach me how to actually build that rapport and build a relationship really quickly.

I love that. I love that. I love how you can be able to track it back to those very early days in, um, in business and working and, um, and then that you're at a point where you're actually putting it into practice and passing it on as lessons for other people.

It's, it's a really weird time travel to go back and try to pinpoint like, where did you get like this inspiration or this inspiration or like, when did this piece, you know, kind of come into play?

Drew Donaldson: Yeah. But I think it's all important. It it, like you're, where you are today is just a summation of where you've been. Yeah. So, and I mean that, that can sound kind of flippant, but that's the reality. But it's the reality. Yeah. Every bad habit you have today started somewhere. Every good habit you have today started somewhere.

But I [00:19:00] think understanding that and kind of being able to go back and say like, okay, why do I, uh, why do I value this over? That is really a, a big part of kind of dissecting yourself as an entrepreneur and figuring out like, well, what does really make me tick? Yeah. Why am I showing up?

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. Yeah. I love that.

And yeah, it is, it's a huge part, isn't it? Because it's that journey of self-awareness. Yeah. And the quicker you come to that point of understanding what, as you said, makes you tick and what it is that you enjoy, then the sooner you can start applying that and, um, thriving as a result of it.

Drew Donaldson: Well, I, and on the inverse, I think understanding why you don't enjoy certain things or like, um, why certain things don't bring you happiness.

So like, I'm not a very material guy. Like I live in a relatively modest house. I drive a modest car. Like I'm not, I don't own any fancy watches. I don't own any fancy clothes. Like my most expensive pair of pants is $50. [00:20:00] Like, you know, like I, those things don't really bring me any happiness. And so, and when I think about like, why is that?

Why don't those things, it's like, well, because I have other things in life that do, and those things are things you can't really buy with more money. And so like. You know, I drove a lot of coaches crazy early in my career because I was not nearly as money hungry as they wanted me to be. And it's just the money brings comfort.

It, it doesn't bring happiness, right? Yeah. Like, you know, so many business owners I work with are so surprised that as their business grows, it gets harder. They're like, I thought it would get easier. It's like, no, it gets harder. It's like more money, more problems is true.

Sadaf Beynon: It's true. You

Drew Donaldson: know? Yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: And like,

Drew Donaldson: and there's no shame in running a true small business.

Like if you're comfortable and happy and have all the things you need, you don't need to grow. Like you should, you should consistently grow to Maine to keep the lights on. Like, don't like rest on your laurels, but you don't need to, you know, [00:21:00] if you're happy running a one man operation and you're making enough money to, to live and pay for the things you need, like you don't need to go and go make enough to buy a Lamborghini, is that actually gonna make you happy?

I, I doubt it.

Sadaf Beynon: I think it's very much about contentment. Yeah. You don't need a whole lot to do, to have that actually.

Drew Donaldson: Yeah. And it's, I I think there's, there's a lot of talk in today's like, entrepreneurial environment about like goal setting, but I think the thing people get wrong is they set the wrong goals.

Like, because the, the, the whole purpose of a goal is to have something to strive for that you're passionate about, that you, you, you know, can, you physically can like, yes, once I make this, then this is going to happen. Right. It's, it's like an, it's a, uh, an equation. And what I think most people do is they set these goals that don't have any like meaningful stake in them.

And then when they reach them, they're disappointed [00:22:00] because they didn't. Actually get the joy of reaching the goal they thought they would. And like, a lot of times people chalk that up to just entrepreneurs never being satisfied and constantly working. But I think a lot of it just comes down to like, well, what was your goal to begin with?

Like, where did that goal come from? Like, oh yeah, I wanna make enough money to buy a, you know, a Rolex's. Like, okay, cool. Why, why is that Rolex important? Well, because, you know, uh, all the guys on YouTube that are successful wear Rolexes. Okay, cool. Is that like actually gonna make you happy being like all the other YouTubers on Rolex or on uh, all the other YouTubers that have a Rolex?

Well, probably not. I mean, it'll, it'll be like nice and you might have, feel, have a feeling of success when you first buy it, but like, long term is every time you look at that, is that gonna make you happy or is it just a watch? Because I've seen a lot of Rolexes. I can tell you they're all just a watch.

It's just a watch. It's like, I think

Sadaf Beynon: it's more of [00:23:00] a status symbol than anything really, isn't it?

Drew Donaldson: Yeah. And I mean, I mean, I just, I don't think status really brings happiness at a core level. 'cause like if it did, why are there so many like Tibetan monks that have nothing, own nothing and are the happiest people in the world?

Like, you know, there's a, um, I forget the name of the country, but there's this like very small country and everybody lives well below, like the poverty line, what we would consider the poverty line. Like they're, they tend to be like farmers and merchants in that kind of stuff. And it's like the happiest country in the world.

It's like, well if materialism and status is what brings true happiness, then they should be the most like miserable people in the world. And yet in every country you will find poor people that are very happy. Yeah. So clearly it's not material possessions or status that is bringing that, but I think people often mistake that because they feel like they need this, this [00:24:00] big ambitious goal to push them forward.

And then when they finally get the gold watch, they're just like, that's, that was not the, the big win. You know, like a, a new Lamborghini is only new for the day. You the day you buy it. Yeah. And then it's just your Lamborghini, like it's, yeah. You know, you're just putting miles on the odometer. That's it.

So like, you know, I, I, I think that if, if people start looking back at their history and start thinking about like, well, why are these things important to me? They'll start discovering that the things that are actually important to them were imparted on them long before, or the reasons that they really want the Rolex are manifesting in some way of, you know, not being enough earlier on life.

Like maybe you always won second place in every high school competition, and you just never got that validation that you were the best. And so buying that Rolex is your version of the, the, you know, the gold medal. Listen, if it's gonna, if it's gonna scratch that itch for you, go right ahead. But I, I don't think a piece [00:25:00] of goods is going to, you know, make you happy.

I don't, I think you're, that's a, a lost, a lost cause.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. I think part of it, um, is that chasing that chasing of happiness. And in my mind, happiness is very much dependent on your circumstances and what's happening in front of you at that moment in time. Whereas that. Uh, joy or that deep contentment, I think that's different.

That's something that is perpetual and something that is ingrained in you. And it's not, it's not determined by the circumstances that you find yourself in. It's just, it's just a part of you. And I think when people are chasing happiness, they end up in a place where it's about the status and it's about the money and it's about having all these things.

Whereas, um, if you chase contentment and that deep joy, I think you end up in a different place. [00:26:00]

Drew Donaldson: And I think, I think there's also a confusion around cont contentment and complacency.

Sadaf Beynon: Okay. And

Drew Donaldson: people think of them as the same thing.

Sadaf Beynon: Yes. Okay.

Drew Donaldson: Complacency is a form of laziness. Right.

It's like you're used to things working a certain way. And so you don't change anything and you rest on your laurels and you don't try to innovate, you don't try to grow, you don't try to be the best anymore, and you kind of just sit and you see this at the tops of a lot of industries, right? When was like, think, think about Tesla and the rest of the auto market, right?

Like the auto market was pretty boring before Tesla came in, right? They were just producing the same cars they've producing for the last 20 years with no real improvements, no real innovations. Like, oh, now you can connect your iPod. Wow, fantastic. Like, you know it, it's nothing particularly special. Yeah.

And then you have Tesla come in and it has going doors and it, you know, it's all digital inside and it's like truly something new. And now [00:27:00] everybody else is, that was resting on their laurels is like, oh my God, we gotta get, like, we gotta do that, we gotta build the, you know, a digital dash and all this kind of stuff.

And it's like, could they have done that prior to Tesla? A hundred percent. But they were complacent. They were producing something that sold perfectly fine and made their stockholders money, and so they didn't feel any pressure to break outta that complacency. They just stayed there. Contentment is just being happy where you are with what you have, and it's not a laziness thing.

Like you can be content working every day. Yeah, like there's some people, like my, my grandfather's a farmer, like he still goes and works every day. He's like, love it. Eight, nine years old, like mm-hmm. He's content, right? He's content waking up every day. He doesn't dread getting on a tractor. He loves being on a tractor.

That's why he keeps doing it. He could have retired. He's got, you know, sons that can take over the business. He likes, he likes planting, uh, seed and harvesting hay and all that. It's, it's enjoyable. So I think the, you know, the, [00:28:00] the, this idea that like, well if I'm not aiming for a lofty goal, you know, then I'm, I'm being lazy.

It's like, well, I think the reason why people can't set happiness as a goal is because they don't understand what would bring them true happiness, or they're ashamed of what would bring them true happiness. And so they don't wanna, you know, go into their mastermind group and say that that's their goal.

Because then they'll also be like, well, we're all aiming to like, buy our second house. And you're like saying you just like, you want to spend half as much time working like, oh God, now you, you don't really fit in with this group anymore. 'cause we're all growth minded. Yeah. And you just want to stay home with your kid.

And it's like, it's, people mix get confused at like rat race status seeking and like, what is actually gonna make them happy. And I, I think it's really sad. It's, I, I, I genuinely, like, when I see people get, like, you know, listen, if, if you like watches, you're a watch collector, like, you know, if that brings you [00:29:00] contentment, great.

But I'm talking more about the people who like position their whole life's work to like, you know, buying a fancy car or buying a fancy watch or buying a fancy house. I kind of feel bad for 'em because there's something else missing in that equation and they're, they don't know what it is yet.

Yeah. And they probably will find it, but it'll cost 'em a fortune to figure it out. Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. There's more to life than that. And I agree. I think with that, the point you made, the, the distinction between complacency and contentment is a good, is a good distinction to make for sure.

Drew Donaldson: Yeah. You don't have to be like lazy,

Sadaf Beynon: like you, you can choose, well, you should be lazy and grow.

Drew Donaldson: But I think, you know, the, the true happiness is, is figuring out like, when are you content? When are you, when do you feel like I have everything I need? The things that are gonna bring me happiness are not going to come with a price tag, or at least not the exorbitant price tech, you know? Mm-hmm. Like, you know, if you like going out to eat the fancy restaurants, like [00:30:00] that's where I would spend my money.

Like I'd rather do that. Yeah. Than, uh, than anything else, but,

Sadaf Beynon: Hmm. Yeah. And even that goes back to relationship over business, doesn't it rather enjoy a meal with someone. But, um, Drew, one of the things that we talked about in, in the pre-call was you buying your business partner out. So, um, I'd love to know, um, I mean, that must have been a huge decision.

So was there a conversation in that, um, in that aspect that, sorry, was there a conversation that made you realize that you had to do it, you had to follow through?

Drew Donaldson: , so just to give you some context of how this all happened, um, at the end of 2020, I met these two guys that were starting an agency.

Um, and when they first reached out, it was like, Hey, um, you'd reached out to us about some other role a long time ago. We kind of kept, you weren't right for that role because we felt you were overqualified, but we kind of kept an eye on you. It seems like you might be looking for a new [00:31:00] opportunity. Um, would you be interested in coming and running this agency for us?

And I was like, yeah, that sounds pretty cool. Like I, I was interviewing for some CMO positions and some VP of marketing positions at the time, and I was like, well, yeah, let's see what this goes. And so when I first talked to, it was two partners that ran another agency. And when I first talked to one of the partners, he said, so this is, I know the position is an agency, but this is not an agency.

It's a coaching program. And I was like. And they were like, you're not gonna deliver anything. You're not gonna deliver any goods. We have a, you know, partners that will deliver stuff if they, you know, if people ask for it, but all you're doing is doing like the marketing coaching. And, uh, and so I was like, oh, that's really interesting.

Like, I kind of, I'd kind of gotten burnout working in like deliverables. I'd been doing that for most of my career. And I was like, that's kind of cool. Like, I'll just get like paid to give people advice. Like that's kind of the ideal. So I was like, yeah, that sounds interesting. Um, and then he is like, all right, cool.

So here's how it's gonna work. It's gonna be this online course, uh, [00:32:00] system, and they're gonna go through the course and then you'll meet with 'em like kind of sporadically, like every month or so, and like answer their questions. And I said, that's not gonna work. And he is like, well, I wanna work. He is like, 'cause I just spent the last year during C-O-V-I-D-I, I knew I couldn't sell anything.

'cause I just launched my agency at the beginning of like right before Covid. And so I couldn't sell anything all through that first year of Covid. But I was able to talk to a bunch of different business owners because everybody was lonely. Like no one had anybody to talk to, no one had any business to do.

So me reaching out and saying, Hey listen, I got nothing to sell you. I just wanna kind of pick your brain on like marketing during Covid and like, what's going on? Everybody was like, yeah, absolutely. So I had packed my calendar full of calls just talking to different business owners about like, what don't you like about working with marketing agencies?

Like what marketing help do you actually need? Where do you think marketing agencies don't deliver on what they're promising? And so I just like created this manifesto of like, well. This is all the things people don't like. I will just do the opposite of those and then I'll have like this great agency.

And one of the things that [00:33:00] came out through those conversations was, I hate how everybody's selling me a course. I don't want, and remember this is beginning of Covid, so this isn't even where the course in coaching, boom exploded, post covid. This was like right at the beginning and everybody was then complaining about how like, everybody just wants to sell me a course.

I don't have time to do courses. I just need direct answers to the specific questions I have so I can grow my business. And so I, I told them that. I was like, this is what people actually want. And they're like, well, that's not, you know, that's not really like, that's kind of anecdotal, like that's based on conversations.

We don't have any like data points on that. And I was like, all right, I'll redo the research. So I spent a whole month interviewing business owners following a system, and I took back the data and I was like, look, it's the same result. Like everything I told you is here. And they're like, okay, we'll get rid of it.

We'll just do the coaching thing. So. At the time, like when they brought me on, they had these very lofty goals for what we, we were gonna be able to achieve. And, you know, I was all on board because I had shares in the [00:34:00] company. So I was like, yeah, let's do it. Like, let's rip. Uh, but the, the whole process was just kind of fraught from the beginning.

So like, we launched our first campaign on Facebook. We got banned for six months, the very first day. So then we had to move over to pay per click and buying leads from bark.com and like we started to gain some traction and by the, the end of the first six months, we'd already grossed a hundred K in annual revenue.

So I was like, all right, so this is working. But the problem was, is that I couldn't take any more clients. We'd capped out, which meant that the goals for the second half of the year were gonna be like, pretty, like we weren't gonna make very much more money. Like we had pretty much made the money we were gonna make for the year, which didn't make them happy.

They said, you know, well, you know, we gotta get another sales person on. So we tried a sales person, you know, we, we ended that year, started the next year with a salesperson. That salesperson didn't work out, and they're just looking at the numbers and they're looking at me and they're looking at like, what we're actually able to produce.

And they're just like, we don't really have the appetite for this anymore. Like, we thought this was gonna be like a [00:35:00] multimillion dollar business overnight. And the way this, the way you're running it. It can't, it can't grow at the pace we want it to grow. And I was looking at the books and I was like, well, one of the reasons is because we're saddled with all these really expensive retainers, like 5,000 to a marketing company, 3000 to a pay per click agency, 2000 a month for, uh, an accounting firm, $2,800 a month for HubSpot.

And so I'm looking at the balance sheet. I'm like, if we just get rid of these things, like we're profitable, like we're not in the red anymore. And they were just like, well, no, that this is how you run agency. You need all these things and like, it's your job to make this work. And so when, when they came to me and they said, you know, we, we'd like you to buy it out.

Uh, I was both, I was both. Really excited and really horrified because my wife was not, uh, was uh, six months pregnant at that point. And so I had to tell a six month pregnant [00:36:00] lady with her first kid that like, Hey, guess what? I'm gonna take out this big loan. I'm gonna buy my partners out and uh, we're gonna try to make this work.

And, um, she was like, yeah, sounds good. Fantastic. Just totally supportive. Didn't doubt me. Didn't like say, well, maybe you should go back on the job market. 'cause that was the alternative, was like, I turned them down and then go back on the job market. And they're like, she's like, you think you can grow it?

And I was like, absolutely, no, I can grow it. Like if I cut all these things we're already, we're profitable overnight. She's like, great. So the, we ended up working on the deal all of March of that year. March ended up being our most profitable month of all time. I bought the business on April Fool's Day on April 1st.

So our, our anniversary is actually coming up,

the day after I bought it, like we closed on the first, the day after I fired everybody. I fired HubSpot, I fired the accounting firm, the marketing. I canceled every single contract we had with vendors. And [00:37:00] by the end of April we were in the black for the first time in the history of the business.

Amazing. And that even that was even with having the debt payments to pay back the loan I took out to buy the business and, and all of this stuff. So like it was one of those things that like, it, it was at the time when it happened, it was really just like me looking at the numbers and I'm like, we're profitable.

We're just, we're just burdened by expenses. We don't need, like we can do all this stuff for much less. But in the lead up to it, it really was. These guys just have a different. Idea about what success in this business looks like. And I think it's gonna grow slower, but I think it can, it can be meaningful and impactful if we, if we grow it the right way.

So like, where we are now is a far, far cry from where we started out. Uh, but you know, the, the business very quickly grew from that point forward and that's great. You know, it, it's changed a lot, but it's the business I wanna run. Yeah. The [00:38:00] business somebody else wants.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. I mean, you had tremendous foresight to, to see the, the gaps and to be able to, you know, deal with it right away as soon as you, you took over.

I'm curious that, that lead up to them. Um, your partners coming to you and saying, we think you should buy it out. One, was there, had something been said before that they came up with this or, and sorry, and part two, um, what was that like for you? Like, I'd imagine it'd be quite stressful because you can see how things could be done better.

And, um, yeah, go on. Like

Drew Donaldson: I, first of all, I appreciate both of my former business partners for everything they gave me and all the, the coaching they gave me and like, these are two industry titans. Like there is, there is, they are very smart guys, but they were running a business at an enterprise level and trying to serve small businesses.

And those are very different markets. And like even now that we're moving more into the enterprise level, it's only now where a lot of the stuff they were doing would actually make sense. Like the, the, you know, [00:39:00] high price marketing team and, and all that stuff at the, the area where we started, which was focused on true small businesses.

They couldn't afford a $5,000 marketing retainer each month. Like they were barely skimping by with like the $500 marketing retainer I could offer them. So it was one of these things that there was just. Very early on, I feel like, because I grew up in the small business arena and I know what people will pay for things and I know how things need to be sold to this group of people.

And they had more enter enterprise experience. Like, you know, they were heads of marketing at these very large organizations. I feel like there was a disconnect there and I, I was seeing one version of the world and they were seeing another version of the world. And so like all throughout there was this constant like, Hey, you need to do more.

And me saying, what else can I do? Like I'm, I'm working 60 hours a week serving clients, like I don't have any more time to do sales calls. Well then you [00:40:00] need to raise the rates. Well. But if I raise the rates, then I'm gonna lose these clients, and then I'm gonna have to sell clients on a higher ticket package that I'm not sure is gonna work.

And so it was this constant like battle back and forth, uh, of like, which, you know, we want it to go this way. We want it to go, I want it to go this way. And so the really, the, the writing was kind of on the wall that there was a, a big disconnect between this. At the end of that first year, we went over the books together and that was the first time I brought up, like, I was like, well, listen, if we cut out all these services, like this business will be profitable.

And their position was, you know, if I remember correctly, it was essentially like, we have these services to help you be successful. You need to be successful above and beyond what these services cost. Which is a fair, a fair statement from their perspective. But from the, what I was seeing on the ground, it wasn't going to be, it wasn't reasonable from the sense of.

If you want to hit [00:41:00] these numbers, we need to radically change the core of the business, which is what I ended up doing. So later on in that year, after I bought them out, like I shifted away from coaching pretty dramatically and shifted like way more into the agency services because that's really how I, that was what I wanted to do to grow.

That's where I saw the opportunity. I was like, we have all this good skillset, most of the people I'm talking to that are able to afford this level of, uh, pricing, don't want coaching. They just want someone to do it for them. So let's just do it for them. And so throughout that whole experience, it was just like, you know, they, the, the differences between us were enough that I was like.

There's, there's definitely two roads here. Maybe they're right, maybe with a different person in charge, with a different perspective. They could make this work, but I didn't, I didn't see the possibility. I thought we either have to radically change the business into more of a traditional agency model, which is what we did.

Or we need to be happy with limited growth and a slower [00:42:00] rollout. So, because they didn't really want either of those options. They wanted, we want this coaching program to grow like an agency would grow without the agency backend. It was like, oh, we're, we're kind of stuck. Like we didn't really have a, a way forward.

And so that process leading up to it was, you know, the, the first three months of that, or the first two months rather of that year were rocky. Like we had the, the salesperson didn't work out for us that we had spent a bunch of money on, and I, I think it really was like just the writing on the wall kind of thing.

Like, I was just happy when they came to me with the buyout offer. Yeah. Because I figured they were just gonna fire me and, or put, put someone else in that was more aligned with their kind of, um, enterprise viewpoints. But when they were like, yeah, we just don't, we wanna take our money and invest it elsewhere and, you know, buy, and we want you to buy us out and here's our number.

I was like, yeah, that's, that is, that is honestly the best scenario [00:43:00] for all of us because I can now take this and prove myself Right. That I know what this business needs.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. And you

Drew Donaldson: can, you know, take your money and invest it elsewhere.

Sadaf Beynon: Wow. Yeah. Again, it's the, the foresight we were talking about before.

Drew Donaldson: I wish I could say I could see into a crystal ball, but it really is because I took the time to listen to customers. Like that's all it really was, is that I had spent so much time under the hood with customers and hearing them talk about what they wanted and the prices and their budgets and what was affordable and what was not affordable, that I was just like, okay, well there's, we're operating right now in a gap at the marketplace where there's just not a lot of people.

People that want to pay high amount of dollars for coaching and not receive any backend services, and for this specific area for marketing coaching, there's just not a lot of people out there. Mm-hmm.

Sadaf Beynon: Drew, what would you say for people who want to learn how to listen to their customers better? So I think in some, in some sense in this day and age, we have so many voices and so many outlets for our [00:44:00] opinions and our ideas.

As customers, but then you also have, as a business, you are, you know, you're quite focused on actually growing the bus business, running the business, and then you have to also, in the midst of all that, listen to the, to the customers and try and shape your, um, services around that. What would you say are, um, some key ways to do that?

Well,

Drew Donaldson: so I mean, in, in all honesty, like this is way simpler than anybody, like, everybody thinks of this as like a technical issue. Like we just have to, we have to take all our reviews from Google and put 'em through AI and like figure out what the common thread is and like, yeah, there's some validity there, especially for large organizations that got a lot of consumer feedback or a lot of support tickets.

Like yeah, leveraging AI to process all that raw data and come up with some actionable insights is like, yeah, that's great, but if you really want to get to know your customers, there's no better way to do them than just call them up and have a conversation with them and not try to. [00:45:00] In part during that conversation, additional solutions or tell them how they're doing things wrong or they're not using your product the right way.

Just listen and understand that if there are issues, that they're not using it the right way. That's not a problem with them. It's a problem with how you onboarded them. It's a problem with how they were sold the product. Like if a customer comes to me and says, well you, you know, I signed this up because I thought you were gonna do X, Y, Z, and none of those things were included.

I have to go back. It's not their fault. Like something told them in that sales process, some email, some text message something, told them that I was gonna do all these things. So what I should be doing is going back and figuring out, okay, where, where did that disconnect occur? How do I fix that for the next person coming through so we don't have this issue again.

And when it comes down to like launching new products or making product improvements, like I have a company right now that I'm, I am not terribly happy with because they changed their, they, they upgraded their platform [00:46:00] and made it significantly less usable and they broke a lot of stuff that I was really counting on as being a, a consistent part of the, the experience of using the platform.

And so all it really would've taken them to do is to go out to their customers and have an interview and say, how could we make this better? Or, let me understand your use case. Walk me through how you're building these. And you do enough of those and you start seeing common threads like, okay, everybody really likes this feature, so that feature has to stay.

Or everybody's building stuff in this particular way, so we can't go and change our our fittings because that's gonna mess everything up down the pipeline. So many times people do all this research and development internal and not actually bring the customer in until the beta is released. And at, at that point, when you're releasing a beta, you're looking for bug fixes.

You're not looking for like full, changing the whole customer experience. Like that's what [00:47:00] an alpha phase is for. Like, that's, that's where you're really dialing in like how things work. Once you're in the beta test, it's too late. You've invested too much time and money building something, and if you didn't get good feedback on it during the beta or during your alpha stage, then your beta is just going to, the only thing you really can do is fix bugs.

So, I mean, I appreciate when a business will, you know, when they make an error, actually come back and say. We made a big pro, like this was a big mistake. Um, we don't know how to fix it yet. We're working on it. This is what our promise to you is. These three things that you guys are concerned about, we're going to address.

So like that shows that you've, you're actually listening to them, that they're not just filling out a survey and it's getting sent into the void. Mm-hmm. Like having that, that two-way communication where they're sharing their ideas with you and their struggles with you and their pain points with you.

And then you coming back and saying, I hear all that. Here's what we're changing, is often what is going to m make more meaningful [00:48:00] relationships with your customers. I mean, one of the things I tell a lot of new entrepreneurs to do is that when you start a business, your first five clients should automatically be, you know, kind of enrolled into your board of advisors.

And the reason for this is twofold. First. They're actively paying you. They have a vested interest in making sure your business succeeds and making sure the product they're getting is best so they can help kind of guide your product. And that way you eliminate having to talk to thousands of people.

Instead, you can listen to the, the, the people that are paying you. Yeah. And it also builds an incredible amount of rapport because now these people think they, they are perceiving you as someone that is, uh, appreciates the value that they're bringing to the table, the knowledge, the skillset they're bringing to the table.

And you're actually taking them seriously enough to take them out to dinner once a month or to, to get on a call with other business owners and share ideas about what they like and don't like, and your openness to accept that criticism without getting defensive or saying, well, you're just not using it, [00:49:00] right?

Or, let me teach you how to do that. There's a better way. Like, just take it, just take the fact that you're gonna get that criticism and then respond to it in a way that says, okay, we get that. Here's how we're gonna fix it.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, I think as a healthy business, you'd want the criticism, right? Because you're never gonna be perfect out the gate.

And you need that to know, you need the feedback to know how you can be better.

Drew Donaldson: A hundred percent. I mean, I, I think, you know, all the companies that I am passionate about promoting, I all feel like they understand their customers. Like they get, they get who they're trying to sell to, they get who they're building for, and they're responsive to concerns.

So like, you know, if I have an issue and I email somebody, send a response back in a timely fashion. Yeah. Don't make me wait a week to hear back from you. Don't put me in some endless ticket queue that, you know, someone's never gonna check. Especially for someone like me who's using a lot of tools that are not necessarily like public facing tools, they're more enterprise level tools.

Yeah. Like I ex I, if I have a problem, I expect it [00:50:00] for the money I'm paying. I expect it to be fixed. Like, you know, I'm not just giving you money to not. Make this program better. I'm, I'm giving you money because I need, I need it for my business.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I, I totally agree with what you're saying.

And I think also having a, um, a channel for your customers to be able to reach out to you if there's an issue or if they want to give you feedback. I think that's quite important too, because sometimes we just assume they'll, they'll know how to do that. They can just get in touch through our website or whatever, but unless you're act actively telling them, Hey, email us, or, you know, um, DM us on Instagram or whatever it is.

I think that's also helpful. What would you say to that,

Drew Donaldson: one of the best SaaS companies in the world right now in terms of customer service and support is heartbeat. So they're a community platform. They're small, a small team. It's probably like 10 people, but their ability to communicate and take in user feedback is second in line.

I've never seen a business that's better at [00:51:00] this. So just to give you an idea of how involved the CEO o is, the CEO's name is a. Mor Deza, and he has been a public facing figure from the beginning. He used to, I, he might still do this. When you book a demo call, you book it with him and like, that's incredible.

Like most people would be like, oh, just get a VA to do that. It's like, no. He cares so much about making sure that you see the value here, that he wants to take that call. He's active inside of their community. He answers questions. He's publicly visible. He runs the town hall every month. At the end of each town hall, he opens the forum so that if you have complaints, if you have questions, if you have problems you're having, you can get them addressed right then and there.

When there are problems with the platform, they jump on them, they own up to it. They had a support queue issue, uh, a year or two ago. They would update on a weekly basis. This is what we're trying, we're we're just, we had a bunch of new users join. We are trying to help everybody like, please, like we're, we are doing our best.

Here's where the support queue is now. [00:52:00] This is what our goal is to turn stuff around. And they would give updates, Hey, we brought in three new support reps to help with this. Like, you know, if you're having additional problems, like let us know. They were owning up to their own faults and they were being transparent about their plans to solve them.

And at the whole time, they never cut down limited communication. He still has his email out there publicly. You can still email him. He will respond remarkably quickly. Like, I don't know how he does anything else in the business without quickly he responds Emails. Yeah. But like, and, and the whole team has this ethos of like.

We are here for the customers. You know, it's, it's like that story of Zappos, you know, back in the day where like, you know, I, I forget what it was. It was like, you know, they were on the phone with a customer and the customer said something about like, oh, you're in Las Vegas. I love this particular pizza that they make in Las Vegas.

And he was in like Salt Lake City. And the customer service rep got [00:53:00] into his car, picked up the pizza, delivered the pizza and the guy's shoes by hand to Salt Lake City. Wow. It's like, yes. Is that insane? A hundred percent. Is that insane? But look, can you imagine that customer ever buying shoes from anywhere else?

Never. So if the cost was one pizza and a trip to Salt Lake City worth, and that customer is now customer for life, pretty good deal. Yeah, pretty good deal. So like, I, I think a lot of people think that, you know. The status quo is acceptable for customer service. But what they don't realize is the status quo is terrible.

So it, all you have to do is be one run, one ring above terrible and you're already outcompeting 90% of the marketplace. 'cause most people have terrible customer service. Yeah. You know, it's the, a good, another good example, like more brick and mortar, home Depot and Ace Hardware. Right. Home Depot has cheaper prices for sure.

Right. Good luck finding anybody [00:54:00] that knows anything. Right. They used to hire, you know, home Depot used to be really good 'cause they would hire retired contractors and they would put them in the departments that they were specialized in. So you'd have a former electrician in the electrical department, a former plumber in the plumbing department.

Well, a couple years ago they started just hiring anybody and so. And, and they're always understaffed. They never have enough people. So you end up spending half your time at Home Depot walking around to find someone, only to find someone that knows nothing about your department that's then gonna call another person.

That you're then gonna have to wait 20 minutes for them to get off a forklift to come help you. And even they may or may not know what you're looking for. Now, compare that experience. Yes, you're paying less. It's a big box store, so you're paying less. Compare that with going to your local ACE hardware.

You walk in the door, you're immediately greeted, you're approached by. Always one person, if not three different people, asking you, Hey, how can we help you? What are you looking for today? They then walk you directly to the thing you're looking for and will spend as much time as you need to make sure that you're getting the right piece that you need.

Like I [00:55:00] cannot tell you the number of times I've walked in with a random screw from something that I need, and the guy will go through every screw bin in the Ace hardware to try to find a screw that will match and test it and measure the length and make suggestions about like, well, this one will work.

But you might need to cut off the end, but you shouldn't cut off the end until you put the bolt on. 'cause then it won't spin off. Right? You'd never get that level of service at a Home Depot, but you'll always get it at Ace Hardware. Are you gonna pay more? Yeah, you'll pay marginally more at Ace Hardware.

But I'm telling you what, if I know exactly what I need outta Home Depot, then I'll go to Home Depot and save myself the 50 cents or whatever. Yeah. But if I'm kind of confused, if I have a couple of different options, I'm always going to ace. Yeah. 'cause Ace is gonna help me. Yeah. Like they're, they, they have people and they all, and because it's a local neighborhood hardware store, you know, everybody there, it's not this rotating cast of characters in, in, in and out every week.

The people that work at ACE work there for 20 years. So they know you. I know every single person that works at my local Ace and that should just give you an idea of how often I go to Ace Hardware. Yeah, [00:56:00]

Sadaf Beynon: it's,

Drew Donaldson: it's, but, but they don't leave because it's, it's a good working environment. They're paid well and they like being

Sadaf Beynon: helpful

Drew Donaldson: and they, they're experts in what they do.

So, yeah.

Sadaf Beynon: And they must have many happy customers like you who, um, who can speak to that. And I guess also, you're not just paying for the product, you're also paying for the service. You're, you're paying for the peace of mind that you've got the exact right thing that you need for your project. So there's so much more to it than just an exchange of product and money, isn't it?

Drew Donaldson: Oh, a hundred percent. And like, you know, every time my, my wife, my wife is tiny, she's like five feet tall, uh, you know, weighs as much as a bag of hammers. So like, she is not going to be able to lift a propane tank into the back of our truck or bags of sand or all that stuff. I mean, she could probably muscle it if she was really under the gun to do it, but that's not, not going to be something that's particularly fun, especially while she's watching a two and a half year old.

Every time you check [00:57:00] out a ace with something that's even a little bit heavy, Hey, can we bring that to the car for you every single time? Yeah. It's, it's a foregone conclusion that they're gonna ask. You don't have at Home Depot. You'd be lucky. You'd be lucky. You'd be lucky if someone's at the customer service desk.

You're doubly lucky if there's someone willing to help you take it out to your car. So it's just a different level of, uh, it, it's a different level of customer service. It's a different level of compassion for the customer. Uh, it, it's not a volume play for Ace. It's a customer service play.

Sadaf Beynon: Yeah. Drew, this has been really fun.

I really enjoyed our conversation and I love how that, um, that lesson you learned really early on at the age of 22, how you've been able to incorporate that into your business life, into your home life, and, um, you just, how you're living it out. I think it's fantastic.

Drew Donaldson: Well, it was, it was a pleasure talking with you. I, I appreciate you having me on.

Sadaf Beynon: No problem. Drew, before we go, where can our listeners connect with you and learn more about GroHause?

Drew Donaldson: Sure. [00:58:00] So, uh, you can, uh, go to our website, G-R-O-H-A-U s.org.

Uh, you can email me, [email protected]. Uh, I, out of all the social media channels, I am most active on X and that's, uh, G R 0 H A U S because there's some guy with an abandoned, uh. Twitter account that has stole my brand name because Klan's name is actually Grohause. So No way. Can't be too mad at him.

But if anyone knows, I think it's like, uh, yeah, G-R-O-H-A-U-S on, uh, Twitter. Tell him I wanna buy his name from him, but yeah. Um, but feel free to connect anywhere on there. I'm on LinkedIn, you can find me as well. Um, but yeah, I'd, I'd be happy to meet with any of your listeners and kind of talk about their, their marketing strategy and what they're doing.

Sadaf Beynon: Amazing. Thank you so much. And for those tuning in, you'll find all the links to Drew in the details and in the description of the show. Well, that's it for today's episode, Drew. Thanks again for your time [00:59:00] and your wisdom and your insight. It's been really great to have you.

Drew Donaldson: It's been a pleasure. Thanks for having me.

Sadaf Beynon: No problem. And to our listeners, thanks for joining us. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe for more conversations that Open Doors. Create opportunities and shape the way we think. So from d from Drew, so from Drew and from me. Thanks for listening. I'll see you next time.